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Vinyl vs.15ips 1/4" 2-track (1/2-track) Open Reel Tape? No. Something else.

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  • #31
    I just found this thread and would love to participate if not too late? I have already PM'd you Dre-J. Please advise if I can still play along!

    All my best,
    Oswaldo Martinez
    President
    Let There Be Sound, L.L.C.

    ____________________________

    •Open Reel: Revox A77 (1/4 track), Revox A77 (1/2 track), Tascam 32, Teac X-1000R •Cassette: Nakamichi 680ZX, Nakamichi BX-300, JVC KD-A8 •Turntables: VPI HW-40 Anniversary Direct Drive/Koetsu Black Goldline, VPI Avenger Reference/Kiseki Purple Heart N.S., Yamaha PX-2 •Electronics: Herron Audio VTPH-2A, Herron Audio VTSP-3A/360, Cary Audio DAC-200ts, Mac mini, Cary Audio CAD-120S MkII •Loudspeakers: System Audio Pandion 30 & Legend 40 Silverback

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by vinylrules View Post
      I just found this thread and would love to participate if not too late? I have already PM'd you Dre-J. Please advise if I can still play along!

      All my best,
      Hi Oswaldo,

      I sent this response to you via PM as well:

      The VTT project was completed when dminches returned the tape. The window for additional participation in that round of listening is now over (the final offer was the 12/16 post #26) and the tape is now on the way back home.

      If there is another round of listening with this project in the future, it will be posted on Audionirvana and you will have to opportunity to ask to participate at that time: given agreement to the terms for this particular project.

      Thanks for interest,
      Dre
      **************************************************
      Every day is a good day to play analog.
      - 12" 33-1/3 RPM or 45 RPM vinyl
      - 10.5" 15ips or 30ips tape
      **************************************************
      Every day is a good day for live music.
      **************************************************

      Comment


      • #33

        For those that had the chance to hear this Vinyl-To-Tape (VTT) transfer RS2-b during this past project; mep, skylab, alrainbow, astrotoy, timztunez, and dminches.

        Were the recorded levels useable for your particular tape decks?

        Please let me know if there were any issues (too low or too high) with the recorded levels for you setups.

        The reason I'm asking is for reference in case I offer another VTT transfer in the future.

        Thanks,
        Dre

        Originally posted by Dre_J View Post
        From my original post at the start of this thread, the purpose of this Vinyl-To-Tape (VTT) project experiment was discussed. If more detail on the reason for and thought about the project are of interest, the beginning posts can help explain more. Below, I’ll briefly recap those posts in fewer words and finish up with thanks.

        This project started with a discussion in a couple of other threads about the sound of vinyl in some relation to tape. Because I enjoy both formats, I hold the tape playback of each reel on my tape decks (5 are 15ips 2-track capable) to a minimum bar of a high-quality standard playback performance level. On a different but similar level, I also hold the vinyl frontend to the same standard of playback comparison to tape: although to a different degree.

        For other reasons, not associated to this project, I had already transferred a series of album tracks from some of my vinyl frontend configurations to tape. These reels (RS2, RS3, and RS4) were/are used by me for tape replay evaluation during outings and audio show coverage –there are also additional commercial 15ips reels used at these times.

        Given that I had these VTT RS reels available to me, I decided to duplicate one of them for this VTT reel project. The reason for this project was to allow some of the interested Audionirvana members to listen to a “simulated version” of one of my vinyl frontend setups (transferred to tape) using their own 15ips tape decks for playback. These are the same tape decks Audionirvana members use to listen to their 15ips tapes (commercial and x-generation removed safety copies) in their own homes. The original RS2 reel was chosen and subsequently duplicated to a fresh SM900 reel (RS2-b) to be used for distribution to the Audionirvana members.

        The vinyl frontend used for this project was recorded to tape by my MRL calibrated (record and playback) Otari MTR-10 Studio Mastering tape deck using SM900 tape, CCIR/IEC record EQ, at 15IPS to create the original RS2 reel. The original RS2 reel was installed on my Otari MTR-10 Studio Mastering deck w/Flux Magnetics repro head. One of my MRL calibrated (record and playback) Studer A 820 Studio Mastering tape decks was used for recording with a fresh reel of SM900 tape, CCIR/IEC record EQ, at 15IPS to create the duplicate RS2-b reel.

        This RS2-b reel is what made the rounds to the final 5 listeners in this VTT project. The first listener (mep) in this thread had a chance to listen to the original RS2 reel some time before I officially started the project.

        The RS2-b reel’s track list is below:

        Artist - Album – Track
        1 Mighty Sam McClain – Give it up to Love – Too Proud
        2 Doug MacLeod – Come to Find – Come To Find
        3 Milt Jackson (w/Ray Brown and Monty Alexander) – Milt Jackson In London " Memories Of Thelonoius Sphere Monk" – 'Round Midnight
        4 Leonard Cohen – Live in London – I Tried To Leave You
        5 Leonard Cohen – Live in London – Whither Thou Goest
        6 Dire Straits – Brothers in Arms (MoFi 45 RPM) – Money For Nothing


        The purpose of the project was to allow AN members to hear a different vinyl frontend in their own home system via. their tape playback machines. Based on the responses I've received, I’d say the project was a success for its main purpose.


        The second benefit was that each recipient of the VTT RS2-b reel enjoyed the songs and track selections. This was a good outcome because it kept the tape playing all the way through. This was also one of the reasons I chose these tracks for the original purpose: remember remote visits and audio shows.


        The third benefit was the listeners all had a chance to virtually hear a different vinyl configuration in their setups that (according to the listeners) was very enjoyable and of high-quality. I don’t need to say more about this because the listener comments are in the posts above this one for readers to see themselves. Each person that heard the tape has shared a comment or two. For that part, I’m happy the listeners had a taste of one simulated vinyl setup configuration (of many) I put together for this VTT RS2-b reel project.


        As I had stated before, I enjoy both formats. I can (and do) listen to both formats without hesitation. I believe both formats can be completely satisfying even when one is demanding high-quality playback: IMO, of course.


        Thanks to all of the gentlemen that participated in this VTT project and for your comments and thoughts (publically and privately). You made the whole project, including my time putting it together, worthwhile.


        Thanks Again,
        Dre
        **************************************************
        Every day is a good day to play analog.
        - 12" 33-1/3 RPM or 45 RPM vinyl
        - 10.5" 15ips or 30ips tape
        **************************************************
        Every day is a good day for live music.
        **************************************************

        Comment


        • Dre_J
          Dre_J commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks Larry

        • timztunz
          timztunz commented
          Editing a comment
          They were fine for me.

        • Dre_J
          Dre_J commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks Tim

      • #34
        Hi Dre,

        My recollection is that while the tape sounded great and I didn’t notice any distortion or saturation, the levels were quite hot, at least as reported by my Studer A807. But I tend to record a little less hot that some, and your decks A820 decks are even more precise. What peaks were you shooting for?
        TAPE: Studer A807, A810; Revox B77 MkII; Tascam BR-20; Technics RS-1700; Pioneer RT-707, RT-909
        VINYL: Denon DP59-L/Benz LP-S MR/ModWright PH 9.0; Pioneer PL-50LII/Dynavector 20xH
        DIGITAL: Bryston SP-3, Marantz NA6006/Pioneer N-50, Schiit Bifrost
        SPEAKERS: B&W Nautilus 800, Pioneer DSS-9, Velodyne FSR-15
        AMPS: Cary SLP-05/Sunfire Signature 600, Pioneer SX-1980

        Comment


        • #35
          None of this level thing will matter much if the original tape by Dre J isn't overloading. On playback the main limitation is the electronics of the playback machine. If not a pro machine or well made the electronics can crack up. I pin my meters all the time with absolutely no distortion.
          JLH

          Comment


          • #36
            Originally posted by Skylab View Post
            Hi Dre,

            My recollection is that while the tape sounded great and I didn’t notice any distortion or saturation, the levels were quite hot, at least as reported by my Studer A807. But I tend to record a little less hot that some, and your decks A820 decks are even more precise. What peaks were you shooting for?
            Hi Rob,

            I recorded the tapes with the ref levels set for 355nWb/m and let the levels on the source tape duplicate there original levels. You are right, the tape (and its original) is hot at that ref level. I didn't want to reduce the level on the duplicate if it wasn't necessary.

            Since I used SM900 tape, I didn't have any concern about tape saturation based on experience with the original tapes. However, I did want to know if the absolute levels on the tape were too much for some tape playback setups in the opinion of those that received the VTT RS2-b transfer.

            I wasn't really shooting for a specific peak level (other than making sure I did a one-to-one transfer) but I didn't want to limit the dynamics of the original tape by reducing the total ref level of the duplicate if I didn't need to. So, your feedback is helpful with my inquiry.

            Thanks,
            Dre
            **************************************************
            Every day is a good day to play analog.
            - 12" 33-1/3 RPM or 45 RPM vinyl
            - 10.5" 15ips or 30ips tape
            **************************************************
            Every day is a good day for live music.
            **************************************************

            Comment


            • #37
              Well after reading Dre's post I agree with him, I too enjoy both vinyl and tape when I am listening to my vinyl setup sometimes I say to myself how can it get any better than this??? Then I will play the same album from one of my many tapes on my MTR 10, and realize that the tape is just better plain and simple but; I still enjoy and love my vinyl setup!!!

              Comment


              • #38
                Originally posted by jonathanhorwich View Post
                None of this level thing will matter much if the original tape by Dre J isn't overloading. On playback the main limitation is the electronics of the playback machine. If not a pro machine or well made the electronics can crack up. I pin my meters all the time with absolutely no distortion.
                JH,

                I wasn't too concerned about the pro machines having limited headroom to play a 355 nWb/m tape. (I have a couple A820s, an A80 VU MKII, and an MTR-10: all calibrated and functional). The tape used was SM900 for the purpose of limiting the possibility of tape saturation while maintaining very good S/N and dynamics.

                You are correct in saying that when the variables I mentioned above are not an issue, the playback chain (including the playback deck) can cause problems in some cases. This is because some of the decks may not be able to handle the amount of signal on the tape itself.

                As long as the front-end electronics of the tape deck doesn't saturate or limit dynamics before the level control circuits in that same tape deck are properly set, the end user has a chance to control the levels to prevent clipping or saturation due to the electronics of the device.

                The above condition is what I was double checking with those that had listened to my VTT transfer. From a technical perspective, I was interested in the saturation portion. From a listener perspective, I was interested in each of those who had listened to the tape letting me know what their subjective perspective was on the playback levels in general.

                Thanks,
                Dre
                **************************************************
                Every day is a good day to play analog.
                - 12" 33-1/3 RPM or 45 RPM vinyl
                - 10.5" 15ips or 30ips tape
                **************************************************
                Every day is a good day for live music.
                **************************************************

                Comment

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