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**Joe Pittman** · 12-27-2016, 01:08 PM

Good question Myles. But not trying to steal your thread, a similar question is "Why Aren't There More Women Audiophiles?". These are surely gender issues. In the case of conductors I'll bet it's political/business related. Whereas women are not hard-wired like men regarding listening to music.

**astrotoy** · 12-27-2016, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post

Good question Myles. But not trying to steal your thread, a similar question is "Why Aren't There More Women Audiophiles?". These are surely gender issues. In the case of conductors I'll bet it's political/business related. Whereas women are not hard-wired like men regarding listening to music.

Joe, I think for audiophiles, it is that women aren't hard wired like men to push buttons. :-) Larry

**mep** · 12-27-2016, 01:32 PM

Oh. I just thought women couldn't communicate with their hands.

**astrotoy** · 12-27-2016, 01:44 PM

Myles, one could say the same thing about women classical musicians 50 + years ago. If you looked at the top orchestras in the world in 1960, many (most) orchestras had no women! I was watching the recent remastered "Rosenkavalier" from the Salzburg Festival of 1960. Karajan was conducting the Vienna Philharmonic- not a woman in sight. Same with Berlin Philharmonic, New York Phil (under Lenny), Boston Sym (except for Mrs. Dwyer - their famed flautist). Today even the staunchly male Vienna Phil has a handful of women, including one of the four concertmasters! (Actually more than a handful - 6!). In contrast Berlin is 14%, and New York is 36%.

We heard Marin Alsop guest conduct the London Symphony a couple of years ago - did a fine job, and a few nights ago we heard the Berkeley Symphony with a woman guest conductor - Elim Chan (a Hong Kong native who graduated from Smith College in 2009) substituting for their permanent conductor Joana Carniero (who succeeded Kent Nagano). Chan has just finished a year as assistant conductor with the LSO and will be in a similar position with Dudamel and the LAPO this coming year.

So some progress. Conductors do lead a peripatetic life, so it does take a special person to do that.

Larry

**Steve Lefkowicz** · 12-27-2016, 02:04 PM

Years ago I was the photographer for an interview with Iona Brown (then the director of the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra, among other posts). I was warned in advance that she could be rather difficult, and the overall description of her was rather negative. When I remarked that the description sounded like what I had heard of most conductors, but that as men, it was viewed as either positive or merely accepted as their eccentricities, I was told that was different. Double standards and misogyny are everywhere.

**mep** · 12-27-2016, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post

Years ago I was the photographer for an interview with Iona Brown (then the director of the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra, among other posts). I was warned in advance that she could be rather difficult, and the overall description of her was rather negative. When I remarked that the description sounded like what I had heard of most conductors, but that as men, it was viewed as either positive or merely accepted as their eccentricities, I was told that was different. Double standards and misogyny are everywhere.

I'm getting tired of too many labels and the preaching that comes with it by sanctimonious hypocritical windbags. The latest thing we are getting schooled on at work is micro inequities. When we can get to the point in the world where the biggest social injustices are micro inequities such as someone not saying hello to you as nicely and as warmly as they did someone else, we will have truly evolved. Now back to our lack of female conductors...

**Steve Lefkowicz** · 12-27-2016, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by mep View Post

I'm getting tired of too many labels and the preaching that comes with it by sanctimonious hypocritical windbags. The latest thing we are getting schooled on at work is micro inequities. When we can get to the point in the world where the biggest social injustices are micro inequities such as someone not saying hello to you as nicely and as warmly as they did someone else, we will have truly evolved. Now back to our lack of female conductors...

Okay if i'm a "sanctimonious hypocritical windbag" I guess. Not going to tell me that there aren't different standards for what is acceptable behavior from men and women when it comes to positions of power or authority.

**mep** · 12-27-2016, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post

Okay if i'm a "sanctimonious hypocritical windbag" I guess. Not going to tell me that there aren't different standards for what is acceptable behavior from men and women when it comes to positions of power or authority.

Steve, I wasn't referring to you, but that is how I would describe our Congress. And guess what? If your an asshole, it doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman. You're still an asshole. It's pretty simple. The thing is, if some guy treats everybody like crap, people are going to say he is an asshole. We haven't put a label on women that call men assholes, we seem to have saved that for men. If males are misogynists, what is the female equivalent? Oh, it's the never heard term "misandrist." When was the last time you heard a man describing a woman as a misandrist?? The fourth of never I assume.

**david k** · 12-27-2016, 06:15 PM

Why aren't there more male midwives? Anybody care? One of my favorite authors is Dr. Thomas Sowell and he has plenty to say on the subject of so called Diversity, here's a recent article by him;

The 'Diversity' Fraud

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/12/20/the-diversity-fraud-n2261393

david

**Steve Lefkowicz** · 12-27-2016, 06:26 PM

I think misogyny gets more focus than misandry not due to cause, but due to effect. Misogynists can keep women from getting better jobs or advancing in areas that are already dominated by men. Misandrists probably keep guys from getting dates with girls they think are hot*. Both are bad, but one more likely has a bigger effect on our modern society.

*the wording of this was intended to be a little silly...

**astrotoy** · 12-27-2016, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by david k View Post

Why aren't there more male midwives? Anybody care? One of my favorite authors is Dr. Thomas Sowell and he has plenty to say on the subject of so called Diversity, here's a recent article by him;

The 'Diversity' Fraud

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/12/20/the-diversity-fraud-n2261393

david

David, there are. They are called obstetrician/gynecologists (like our friend Dr. Williams). :-) Actually when the salaries of nurses went over $100K, we saw an explosion in the number of male nurses.

A better question is why aren't there more female priests?

Larry

**mep** · 12-27-2016, 06:36 PM

Women are their own worst enemy in the workplace. I've been watching it for 42 years.

**Joe Pittman** · 12-27-2016, 06:46 PM

Why aren't there more women Composers?

**mep** · 12-27-2016, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post

Why aren't there more women Composers?

I don't know, but I'm sure it's our fault and we need to apologize and go through some type of sensitivity training.

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