EMI HMV vs. EMI Odeon

[allenh]

Picked up ASD 2961 from Princeton Record Exchange today. Listening to it now. On Discogs, I see the picture has the HMV label while mine has the Odeon label on it.




vs. my Odeon labeled LP:




Any difference in SQ or it's just labeling?

[MylesBAstor]

From one of my listening buddies -- and that's what I seem to remember also.


There were ODEON labels placed over the regular EMI labels in some instances. They are legitimate EMI pressings which can be seen in the mother, stamper designations. First pressings would have a “1” at 9 am; 1 with a letter of engineer at 6 pm; the letters GRAMOPHLTD at 3 pm (G being the first pressing, GG being the 11th and so forth).

One of the entries available in Google says:

“ EMI had Odeon as an Export safe label for use on HMV and Columbia Labels. Columbia in 1973 was replaced with the EMI Label to eliminate a big trademark conflict.” I concur with this entry. Louis

Final note: the letter G at 6 pm designates Ted Burkett, EMIs best engineer.

[MylesBAstor]

I posted this before but thought it was reposting. This will help identify what pressing you are looking at. The left hand column is the stamper number eg. a 1 stamper has a B, 2nd stamper U and so on.

Decca Stamper # info (at 3 o’clock)

1-10 B U C K I N G H A M

11-20 BB BU BC BK BI BN BG BH BA BM

21-30 UB UU UC UK UI UN UG UH UA UM

31-40 CB CU CC CK CI CN CG CH CA CM

41-50 KB KU KC KK KI KN KG KH KA KM

51-60 IB IU IC IK II IN IG IH IA IM.



EMI Stamper # info (at 3'oclock)

1-10 G R A M O P H L T D

11-20 GG GR GA GM GO GP GH GL GT GD

21-30 RG RR RA RM RO RP RH RL RT RD

31-40 AG AR AA AM AO AP AH AL AT AD

41-50 MG MR MA MM MO MP MH ML MT MD

51-60 OG OR OA OM OO OP OH OL OT OD

[MylesBAstor]

Some further information: DECCA LPS


Engineers

A ‑ This is the letter identifying the engineer who created the Master Lacquer and supervised the whole process up to the stampers. I have been able to get a confirmation on the names behind all letters used by Decca. The confirmation is done by one of the men who actually did the job, Mr L aka George Bettyes:


A = Guy Fletcher
B = Ron Mason
C = Trevor Fletcher

D = Jack Law
E = Stan Goodall
F = Cyril Windebank
G = Ted Burkett

K = Tony Hawkins
L = George Bettyes
W = Harry Fisher


In general we can say that the lower Matrix number you have, the earlier pressing is in your hand. This is not always 100% correct. For LP’s with huge quantity sold it may be like this, but for LP sold in small numbers there can be a number of years during which the same matrix numbers were used in production. I have for example a copy of the Out Of Our Heads LK4725 export version with a non grooved label that still has a ‑1A matrix number. The original issue was on a grooved label in September of 1965 and the non grooved labels were produced during end of 1968 and 1969. So almost four years after the first pressings they still used a stamper originated from the first Matrix.


George adds:

“Matrix numbers on LP’s: As you already know the matrix numbers on LP s were engraved ARL 1234 1A or 2A etc.If the record needs to be remastered it was usually recut by the original engineer.The person who had cut the record may not be available so someone else may have to recut.Then he would put his identity letter on the lacquer.The matrix number would then read ARL 1234 1L because this would be the first time this engineer had cut this record. If it was recut again the identity letter would either be 2L or 3A depending who cuts it.”


The engineers had their “own” LP’s to take care of. It was usually the same cutting engineer who did a new cut if a new Master Laquer was needed. Decca had also dedicated Mono cutters who only took care of Mono records. Guy Fletcher has done almost all Rolling Stones mono LP’s. Stereo records were cut by several engineers. The albums were mainly cut by the following persons:


Mother Number

This number can be found approximately at 9 a clock on the vinyl. The number is sometimes difficult to see, but it is there. This is the number of the Metal Mother used to make the Stamper. The highest number I have found to date is 5. Most of all LP's has either 1 or 2. You may also sometimes find combinations of two numbers. The reason for double numbers is not known to me. Some of the mother numbers do also include letters, usually B. The reason for this is not either known. In general it can be said that the lower number you find, the earlier Mother is used.

The number in this picture is 1

Stamper

The letter identifying the Stamper can be found at 3 a clock on the vinyl. The letter is sometimes difficult to se, but it is there. Decca used the word BUCKINGHAM for numbering of the Stamper. The first Stamper to be made from the Mother has the letter B, the next one has U and so on. You may also somethimes find combinations of two or even three letters. Numbering logic goes like this:

B = 1, being the first stamper taken from the mother

G = 7, being the seventh stamper taken from the mother

UK = 24, being the twenty fourth stamper taken from the mother

[Guest]

Hat tip for all that !

[astrotoy]

Thanks for the big Summary, Myles. One point from your first post (#2) was the letter G on EMI standing for Ted Burkett. On your post #4 you list G Ted Burkett in the Decca listing of stamping engineers. That is what I also have, not EMI.

Odeon was used by EMI in the US and would cover the entire label (black) or sometimes part of the EMI label (rectangular sticker). The reason for this is that EMI owned the "nipper" trademark in Europe, while RCA owned it in the US and Canada. So when EMI exported its records to the US (not when they had them reissued by their US subsidiary Angel) they had to cover up the "nipper" logo. Likewise, when RCA issued its records in Europe, they couldn't use the "nipper", so no RCA shaded dogs or other little nippers on European pressings. I have a few early white/gold EMI's (from the ASD three digit series) which have Odeon labels pasted over and part of the label peeled off to show the white/gold label underneath. However, if the Odeon label isn't peeled, then you can't be sure whether it is a later label that is being covered. There are some later Odeon and Angel stickers I have on a few of my EMI ASD four digit albums that cover the postage stamp nipper and one can't tell whether it is a black and white postage stamp or a later colored postage stamp, since they both have white rings around the label.

We had some questions on our Phonogram listserve about some of the letters used by Decca stamping engineers. I asked Elaine Law, Jack Law's widow (letter D) whether she had any information about some of the letters not on the list. For example both M and Y, which I have on several of my Decca records. She did find some info in Jack's notes. (BTW Jack and Stanley Goodall (letter E) both moved on to become recording engineers for Decca.) One thing I found out, confirmed by recording engineer John Dunkerley, was that some of the letters were shared by different people, particularly when Decca use some of the recording engineers do some stamper work. They didn't do enough to warrant another letter, so they just used someone elses. I have to see whether I can find the exact details.

Larry

[JCOConnell]

What is the EMI HMV ""Greensleeves" label all about? I noticed I have one of those recently.

[astrotoy]

Greensleeves was partly a reissue series, and partly an original series for EMI. Usually very fine sonics. It was a mid-price label (cheaper than their full priced labels.) Nice introduction to EMI's. IIRC, they were issued in the late '70's t0 early mid 80's. HP had several on the TAS SuperDisc list.

Larry

[MylesBAstor]

Greensleeves was partly a reissue series, and partly an original series for EMI. Usually very fine sonics. It was a mid-price label (cheaper than their full priced labels.) Nice introduction to EMI's. IIRC, they were issued in the late '70's t0 early mid 80's. HP had several on the TAS SuperDisc list.

Larry

Yes, usually the Greensleeves can be had for less money. But remember HP had on his list what LPs were in his collection at that moment in time. The originals of some of the Greensleeves--for instance Le Cid--are in most cases much better sonically. I still don't understand the whole thing about the white dog Scheherazade (?) sounding better than the shaded dog release.

[allenh]

Wow, great information Myles and Larry, thank you. Can always count on the knowledgeable members here on AN!

[JCOConnell]

They sure are EMI experts.

[MylesBAstor]

They sure are EMI experts.

One learns something when collecting records for 35 years. Just ask Bill Hart!

[JCOConnell]

were there American releases of the EMI titles/recordings ? if so, what label were they on?

[MylesBAstor]

were there American releases of the EMI titles/recordings ? if so, what label were they on?

Angel. And horrid sounding.

[JCOConnell]

Angel. And horrid sounding.

I have a few angels. They are not that bad if you don't compare them to the real thing (EMIs). One thing I have noticed in my record buying adventures is that angels are hard to find in mint condition. They always seem to have some sort of surface noise problem. The pressings must be dubious.