Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How Many Circuits Feed Your Audio

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How Many Circuits Feed Your Audio

    Recently I installed a sub panel for a friend. From the panel he was feeding a single OFC cord to his power strip. Due to noise issues at his house, he was trying some power conditioners and wanted to isolate different equipment. Some on the conditioner, other not. In order to do this he ran a second OFC cord. Both circuits are on the same phase. In the end he was raving about how amazing it was to have his amps on there own circuit. The rest of the gear on the other.

    I myself having noise issues got into my power feeds again and ran a separate circuit to just my amps. 10 awg thwn in a steel pipe. I routed the circuit through a line isolation transformer. It was pretty bad. General noise was high. As in my hum issues were constantly loud. The transformer had to go. Since I already had the second circuit in place and my amps bolted to the circuit (I hardwire my power cords to the branch circuit), I decided to just leave it as is but take the transformer out of the circuit. Holly cow. With 2 circuits same as my friends system, amps on one, all other gear on the other, the sense of space, clarity, dynamics to a degree, all jumped for the better. Overall noise, as in my hum dropped dramatically to a low level that remains very constant. The as good as it gets during the day and bad at night fell to a good as it gets level and has remained there for a few days now.

    No my amps are not fixed. The inherent hum issues still persist.. Still loud enough they are heard at the listening chair. But they don't go all haywire at night and get so loud it interrupts your listening to the TV when the stereo is muted. The overall noise has just remained constant at a low level. There definitely appears to be less reactance between the amps and front end gear with 44 feet of wire between them. I am 22 feet from my panel to my audio power outlets.

    Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience. Anyone tried one circuit for everything, then separated just the amps and put them on a second circuit. Or vice versa.
    Rex
    PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI Paramount preamp,
    Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
    Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects. ADDPower Symphony and Electraclear.

  • #2
    On my main system, I have one single dedicated line and no hum at all (amps are solid state and hybrid). On my secondary system, I don’t have a dedicated line. I have no hum and the amp is a single ended triode design. Note that the hybrid and single ended triode designs are not as quiet as the solid state one but this is clearly no hum or ground loop.

    Comment


    • #3
      8 dedicated circuits.....

      Comment


      • jfrech
        jfrech commented
        Editing a comment
        I have 4 dedicated circuits. All on the same phase. I do lift the grounds on the XLR's at my preamp (via a switch).

        Also, I installed 4 Cardas outlets recently. These are fantastic...

    • #4
      Everything's run off a single 20 amp circuit, in fact, it's all tied a powerstip of the same rating plugged into a single duplex outlet. It minimizes ground loops to the point I have none, didn't cost me a dime (standard house wiring). It wasn't always like that, back in the day I owned a pair of Krell MDA-500s that would trip 20 amp breakers until I doubled the capacity. Nowadays Im using a 12 WPC amp that draws a pittance of current, between it and the rest of my system, Im probably drawing less than 5 amps at full chat.
      Linn Kilmax LP12 | My Sonic Lab | Channel D | Wadia | Innuos | Valvet | KR Audio | Klipsch

      A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know when when you are wrong - Neil deGrasse Tyson

      Comment


      • #5
        4x dedicated 10ga armoured cable-
        Last edited by kcin; 03-27-2020, 08:19 PM.
        Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
        Brinkmann La Grange & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point ,FR64S, Brinkmann 12.1 , .Koetsu Jade Platinum,Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
        Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
        Pre-Amps:Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
        Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2
        Otari 5050BXII, DeHavilland 222

        Comment


        • Rob
          Rob commented
          Editing a comment
          loaded for bear!

        • Kingrex
          Kingrex commented
          Editing a comment
          Why Armored Cable instead of Metal Clad cable.

      • #6
        How many is by need. But if it’s more then one use the same phase this is important.
        analog stuff.
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
        sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
        new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
        thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
        thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
        kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
        phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
        speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
        mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
        digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
        Dacs lampi various

        Comment


        • #7
          150 amp box, seperated from main house box outside at meter. Using five 20 amp lines at the moment. No noise
          SOURCE: VINYL - EAT C-Sharp with, EAT LPS power supply, My Sonic Lab Signature Gold (ordered)
          DIGITAL - Auralic Vega G2 DAC. Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. Bluesound Node 2i streamer
          PHONOSTAGE: AudioNet PAM G2 with AudioNet EPX power supply.
          PREAMP: Audionet PRE G2.
          AMPLIFIER: Audionet MAX monoblocks.
          SPEAKERS: YG Acoustics Anat III Signatures (upgraded to Sonja 1.2) SVS SB-4000 subwoofers (x2)
          CABLES: Kubala-Sosna.....Audio Desk Systeme RCM, Adona Rack, GIK & Acoustimac room treatment, Isoacoustics

          Comment


          • #8
            I use 2 twenty amp circuits. One's for the front-end and the 3-way line-level crossover; the other is a dedicated line for the 3 stereo amplifiers (system is tri-amped). The two lines are on different phases of the circuit breaker because... I never got around to changing them. I independently checked grounding of every component with a digital multimeter and reoriented plugs for lowest noise.

            There are 11 different audio things plugged in. Cable routing makes a difference! This system is just asking for a ground loop, but there is none and NO noise.

            Comment


            • #9
              I use 4 dedicated circuits in my studio wired from the panel to my studio with (garden-hose-like) #6 huge cable. Luckily my electrician is a master and didn't balk at installing/connecting this cable. So amps are separate from rest of system. Same with tape decks which are on their own circuit.
              JLH

              Comment


              • #10
                Living in an apt. limits things but I had 2 x 20 amp dedicated lines.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers and Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 and Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                Comment


                • #11
                  i'm like Bruce.

                  i use an Equi=tech 10WQ 10kva wall panel system with 10 dedicated circuits. 5 of these circuits are for my amplifiers (2 x 2 power cords for bass towers, 2 x 1 each for the mono blocks, one extra in the middle). all 20 amp.

                  i also have 'dirty' power outlets in the room from a completely separate panel in my barn so can experiment with a separate circuit from time to time. so far has never been as good as my dedicated circuits.

                  always dead quiet. i did have to lift the ground when i was running those Lamm ML3 mono blocks for 6 months. otherwise i got noise.
                  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

                  Comment


                  • Kingrex
                    Kingrex commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Are you 10 awg romex in the wall. Did they run any conduit and pull wire?

                  • Mike Lavigne
                    Mike Lavigne commented
                    Editing a comment
                    yes; all 10 awg Romox.

                    only conduit is for the 220v 70amp service from my main panel in the garage, to the barn Equi=tech 10WQ panel. trenched between the buildings. the dedicated lines in the walls of my room are not inside conduit.

                • #12
                  Let me throw a little more dirt on this.

                  Maybe a year ago I was in one of my experimenting phases. I wanted to try more circuits to my amps. I took regular NMB 10 awg wire. I ran it from my panel up and out to my amps. I put a cord cap on the ends of the nmb and landed them on my amps. I used 2 runs of wire that were the same length. They were also cut very close to the same length as my ofc cord to my power strip. This did nothing for performance in any way. It was just as noisy, same dynamics, same space and separation. I heard no benefits at all. Might have even felt it was not as good. It definitely did nothing for my perception that day and night power differed in quality. I removed the nmb and went back to my original configuration of everything off a singe circuit out of my power strip.

                  Fast forward to today. As per my Initial post. This time I have a 1/2" steel conduit with 10 AWG thwn in the conduit. That thwn is then wire nutted to the ends of a power cable made from 12 awg hook up wire on the hot and neutral. 2 runs of the same wire are on the ground so it more like a 10 awg ground. The whole of wires have one layer of Mylar encasing it with a 20 awg dead soft silver wire wrapping it tight. It is then covered in tech flex. I have a cord end on the end of my cord that plugs into the amp. So what's the difference. The initial try was nmb. The initial try was 2 runs, one for each amp. Why is the one run of emt to made cord so much better. I'm still in awe at how consistently low the noise level is. How much better the space and staging is. How much more the speakers hide. I want to activate another run of thwn and feed my digital, maybe the preamps. I don't really know. Was just thinking of trying another configuration. But, its so good, I don't want to screw with it either.

                  In all, I don't know why the second try was so much more successful than the first. I am also very surprised from all I have read that 2 circuits would be better than one. Everyone is so concerned with ground loops and more than one circuit. I have noted that all the new power conditioners from Shunyata, Audioquest and others are claiming to reduce interactions of 1 piece of equipment to another. I wonder how much that was an issue in my single power feed setup. I also wonder what is the correct number of feeds and what really needs its own branch. So far in 2 systems, were are seeing the amps like to be on there own.

                  Hopefully some others will have a chance to move equipment around on multiple circuits and listen for results. Also be interesting to hear if others have tired NMB as compared to say pipe and wire, or MC/AC cable. I'm pretty much thinking, at the time I build my retirement house, I am going to run emt pipe to the locations my equipment will be powered from. I will probably also run pvc pipe and maybe romex. Heck. its only one room. Pipe and wire isn't that much trouble. At least not for me.
                  PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI Paramount preamp,
                  Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
                  Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects. ADDPower Symphony and Electraclear.

                  Comment


                  • jonathanhorwich
                    jonathanhorwich commented
                    Editing a comment
                    What is NMB?

                  • Kingrex
                    Kingrex commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Non metalic sheath. Romex. Romex is a brand, But people understand what that means.

                  • jonathanhorwich
                    jonathanhorwich commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Oh got it and thanks. Romex I know. NMB I didn't as an abbreviation.

                • #13
                  I have 4 20A (Romex 10 gauge) dedicated lines into my music room. Only using 2 of these: 1 for the D’Agostino amp (connected directly to the wall); and, the other for the source equipment and pre-amp (all connected to a Shunyata Triton 3 conditioner). All receptacles are Shunyata. System is super quiet.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    House wiring 101, a question for the tradesmen in the house that are electricians: I presently rent a house with 100 amp service (main breaker). There are twenty breakers from 15 amps to 20 amps and four at 50 amps. The 50 amp breakers supply the appliances and the balance are for the remaining living space. I'm running my entire audio rig off one 20 amp circuit that supplies the zone encompassing the living room.

                    What is the potential benefit to running this circuit off a dedicated panel? I have no ground loops or interference from dimmers, etc, This is all presumptive as I rent this house I wouldn't actually upgrade the electrical even if the owner allowed it.
                    Linn Kilmax LP12 | My Sonic Lab | Channel D | Wadia | Innuos | Valvet | KR Audio | Klipsch

                    A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know when when you are wrong - Neil deGrasse Tyson

                    Comment


                    • Rob
                      Rob commented
                      Editing a comment
                      You're dead on, this is a So. Calif tract home built in '75. I suspected the bottom 50 amp breakers fed the upper half of the panel. This house is split level and there's plenty of crawl space under the living room (suspended floor). Would you run a dedicated 10 awg off an existing breaker or add a new one?

                    • Kingrex
                      Kingrex commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I would put a new breaker in. If a SqD breaker fit, I would use it. But you may have to use some other. If you put 2 circuits to the rack, you could still land them both on 1 new breaker. I have more than 1 wire under a breaked. They just have to be the same gauge and type. As in stranded or solid. Not one stranded and the other solid.

                      Seek out a space on the primary side of the panel. Make sure the new grounds and neutrals are landed as close to the incoming neutral and ground bonding point as possible. The neutral and ground are most likely a common bar. Newer panels have the ground as its own bar. If for some reason there is a stand alone ground bar, install a short #4 jumper from right at the neutral incoming point to the ground bar. Land your grounds in the hole next to your jumper on both the neutral and ground.

                      You dont want your wires on the opposite side of the panel bus from the incoming neutral\ground bond point. If you are on the other side your neutral and ground need to travel through some type of metal jumper from one side to the other. If there were no other way, I would install a copper jumper of #4 or maybe #6 wire from one side to the other. Doing so will also drop micro volts from one side to the other from maybe 6 to 0.

                      A bonus of older panels is many are made of copper bus.
                      Rex

                    • Rob
                      Rob commented
                      Editing a comment
                      great insights, thanks.

                  • #15
                    I don’t anyone’s head to explode but one circuit is best
                    one 50 amp or 60 amp circuit over size the feeder and install all hospital grade iso ground outlets in one multi gang box
                    min doing so all ground planes come from one source of setup correctly
                    one power source as well. We all want better power but we don’t need to spend big bucks for it.
                    analog stuff.
                    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                    Dacs lampi various

                    Comment


                    • Kingrex
                      Kingrex commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Al, are you saying pull a 4 gauge wire to an outlet box, put it on a 20 amp breaker and pigtail to receptacles.

                      Or are you saying break the nec rules, by putting a 50 amp breaker on the #4. I would not advocate that.

                      I have also been told by an engineers from Shuntata, a couple online posters and a installer who builds out recording studio where an oversize wire is not necessarily best. Its hard for me to explain why. My understanding is 2 problems can arise. One is the the unrestricted current flow can oversaturate certain electronics like DAC and servers. Kind of like a 4 inch water pipe to your sink faucet. The valve is not designed for that much potential. The other is with such low impedance its easier for noise to pass from the utility or between equipment and exacerbate hiss, hum or saturated transformers with dc offset.

                      I fully believe ground planes need to be equal. I also feel all runs should be of equal size and length and solidly bolted together at the main distribution to acieve a balanced ground plane. I also upsize my grounds to exceed that of the current carrying conductors. Sometimes the neutral too. Say a 10 hot and 8 ground and neutral. But that is a pipe and wire feed.

                    • MylesBAstor
                      MylesBAstor commented
                      Editing a comment
                      But you couldn't do that in an apt.

                    • Kingrex
                      Kingrex commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Could not do what Myles. Apartment and condo are tricky. I don't work in them much any more due to liability. I only have 4 million max coverage. But for the most part, multi family building don't have attic or basement to route new wire through.

                      If I was in an appartment and really wanted audio grade circuit I would route a 10 awg SJO cord from the panel along the edge of the wall to my gear. If at all possible. Cord is made for Hard Use. It's surprisingly good sounding too. I believe the rubber case damps vibration. Just a hunch. If I was sure I would be there a long time I would make a 1" hole 1.5" off the floor at walls to get from room to room. 1.5" gets you over the bottom plate. I would put a female plug on the end of the cord and go into a power strip. A 1" hole is easy to fill and hide when you move.
                  Working...
                  X