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**astrotoy** · 12-07-2016, 12:53 AM

Myles?

**MylesBAstor** · 12-07-2016, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by comedus76 View Post

Hello all,

New joiner here - been reading for a while and it looked like at least a few of the regulars here are NYC residents, so here goes.

I'm keen to get some friendly advise on cleaning up the power to my components. I live in Manhattan in an apartment building on the Upper East Side. It's close to impossible to carry out any electrical work anytime soon for me (like 20A dedicated lines for the components or replace outlets or some other structural fix). While I'm VERY pleased with the sound (especially after adding S1MkIIs - thanks to Bob @ Rhapsody) I'm getting at the moment, I'm curious if there's something "hidden" in there that I could unearth by addressing the power part of my setup.

I've done the usual reading on the forums and mags trying to get a sense of where to start but most of the advise seems tailored to folks who already have dedicated lines running to their homes and to their listening rooms. In an apartment building scenario, I'm not really sure where to start. Is dirty power coming into the apartment the biggest issue, is the EMI/RFI coming for PC/Networking equipment plugged into other outlets in the house a bigger issue, is grounding good or bad for the building itself, might upgrading the power cords alleviate most of the upstream issues, etc. Is there a way (and is it worthwhile) to measure any of this to actually test where the problems might lie? Since I don't have unlimited funds (not to mention space), I can't simply acquire a full 'stack' of power components.

So the advise I'm looking for is:
1. where to start (line conditioner, distributor, EMI/RFI suppressor, power cords)
2. what products have folks used here in NYC that have helped address one or more of these issues (brands/models)
3. what's the order of priority to allocate funds

Any and all practical advise on how to optimize my setup is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Glad to have you aboard. Reckon we're close neighbors.

I'm up on East 84th. St.!

Very nice system!

Welcome to apartment dwelling.

These are the same questions that I've asked over the years (perhaps Al who's an electrician too in NYC can add his thoughts too!).

Priorities. For me and probably most, the first thing to address is getting dedicated lines into the apartment. (now there are always things people can nitpick about but we can't always look for perfection in an apt. but the best we can do.)

I posted this advice previously from Jim Weill regarding putting in dedicated lines:

Here is something going back years ago that one should also consider about installing dedicated lines and AC power:

(1) Audiophiles might be advised to hire an electrician (and insist on the following) and have them check that the AC lines running to their equipment is on the same leg - otherwise the AC wave form running to your power transformers on different equipment will be 180 degrees out of phase with some of your other devices. This can increase the noise floor and produce ground loop hum.

(2) Another might be for the electrician to use a Power Factor Analyzer, measure the two legs and choose the better of the two.

(3) Finally, have electrician clean the connections and retorque everything to factory specs. Sparky will not want to do this but insist and WATCH them do it.

(Thanks for these suggestions to Jim Weill! of Sound Applications)

Now I've not played with the the type of wiring inside the wall but others might comment (of course this sort of thing has to meet building code!).

Now it seems the above might be hard right now but I strongly suggest getting rid of the fifty cent AC receptacles (since they add noise, grunge, etc. to the sound). Especially in an older apt. At the very least some of Albert Porter's Porterports and at the best something like the Furutech AC receptacles. You'd be shocked in the absence of even doing anything else, how much of a difference changing the AC receptacles makes! That might be a good place to just start.

Then I would suggest some sort of AC line conditioning. Problem is here there are more pretenders than actual products that work, especially when it comes to amplifiers. Two that many people have had success with are the Silver Circle AC line conditioner (that I use) and the Shunyata Research products. My suggestion is see if you can at least arrange a demo to see it works before plunking down the money. But at least use some sort of AC line PLC on the front-end, especially using digital products. In fact, I'd keep digital products on their own line. In the end, one thing to listen for is is the background quietness.

Power cords are hit or miss. People might suggest some that work for them but again, try and arrange to hear some power cords before you buy.

**Bill Hart** · 12-07-2016, 07:56 AM

I'm not in an apartment, but even with dedicated lines up in the country north of Manhattan, I've found that isolation transformers do a lot of positive things to ameliorate noise- in my case, by isolating a noisy device (a motor on an air compressor) from the rest of my system. In theory, the reverse should hold true as well--having the components run from such a transformer could free it from the nasties of a building electrical system over which you have little control. The chief "issue" with these things is their own noise- they hum. So, the layout of power cables would have to take account of locating the transformer(s) in places where you aren't going to hear them humming away. One of the chief benefits, I think, is that you are doing very little "conditioning" of the signal by use of an isolation transformer alone; you can certainly add line conditioning between the transformer and the component(s) or not, as needed. The other advantage of isolation transformers is that you don't necessarily have to buy "audiophile approved" products- one I am currently using for an air compressor is sold as a medical grade device.
I don't know what code requirements are, so that's a factor. These transformers can be configured as 15 amp with a 20 amp plug, or run from a 240 volt line and step down to 120. Some are sold as plug and play--in Faraday cages with self-contained breaker switch; others can be bought naked and wired in--though again, that may raise code issues that a qualified electrician should be able to address.
I don't use any conditioning on my system equipment- just dedicated lines from a subpanel. Some gear manufacturers caution against conditioning, presumably due to current deprivation. My system improved after installation of the dedicated lines and eventual removal of conditioning devices that were available 10 years ago. Myles' comment about isolating the digital is a fair point- I don't have any digital stuff hooked up in this system or room so I never crossed that bridge (and eliminated wi-fi nodes and switching supplies for ancillaries on the floor where the system resides).
Most electricians aren't "audio" savvy-- for good reason--there is nothing particularly unique about electricity and audio other than good practices, but sometimes, there are "better" practices for audio that a competent electrician will follow, at least when it comes to setting up dedicated lines, grounding, etc. that may not come into play with an apartment if you can't go that far, given how the building/apartment wiring is set up and code issues. (For example, using a certain type of panel with a copper grounding buss if you are able to install a new or adjacent subpanel; how the lines should remain "unbundled" if snaked through walls, etc.).
My overall take is that the further upstream you address the issues, starting with the transformer (on the pole) outside, the less you need the band-aids closer to the gear itself- fancy conditioners, uber priced power cables, but everything makes a difference, including the receptacles (and I don't have super fancy receptacles here, just good 'ol Albert Ports).
There is a guy who is on one of the fora, JEA48 is his web moniker, who is a hi-fi nut and electrical engineer type who knows code and can speak authoritatively. I can try to drag him over here to help too. (His responses to questions helped me, and he continues to provide solid, code compliant advice to others).

**Joe Pittman** · 12-07-2016, 10:19 AM

I have a white paper titled "Poor Man's Dedicated Circuit" which is a simple low cost improvement that can be made by people with daisy chained outlets (serial connections).

Recently I found an electrician through the Pacific Northwest Audio Society (I live in Seattle) who is also an audiophile (he's a tube guy, but I won't hold that against him). It is very helpful to hire an electrician who understands the goals of high performance audio systems. We are working together now to design and install new wiring systems in our area. I'll provide more information on a current project in a new thread in about a month.

**Marcus** · 12-07-2016, 11:20 AM

IMO you should also check how polluted is in fact your line. On your demand the company that provides electrical energy to you is obligated to test if your line is in accordance to the rules and regulations. That way you will get the basic information if your line is OK or not. The second thing you can do is to buy an EMI meter and measure this important interference yourself. The Line EMI Meter measures electromagnetic interference in a single-phase AC power line. It plugs into a wall outlet (mains socket) and displays total line noise in millivolts (range 1999 mV, resolution 1 mV) in the frequency range 10 KHz – 10 MHz. A speaker plays the sound of the EMI, amplitude demodulated, in order to identify the EMI source (such as an AM or shortwave radio station vs. a motor vs. an electric arc). It's relatively cheap ($130-170). Go to: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Line-Li.../dp/B00OY2NKAC. I'm sure you can measure lots of other interferences with more complicated and expensive devices, but for starters this one should do.

Before I got the P.I.Audio Group UberBuss AC conditioner, I bought one and measurements were very interesting...

This is a measurement direct from the wall:

And this is a measurement from the UberBuss: Good result IMO but after the 50 hours of burn-in the result is even better - around 45mV.

**MylesBAstor** · 12-07-2016, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Marcus View Post

IMO you should also check how polluted is in fact your line. On your demand the company that provides electrical energy to you is obligated to test if your line is in accordance to the rules and regulations. That way you will get the basic information if your line is OK or not. The second thing you can do is to buy an EMI meter and measure this important interference yourself. The Line EMI Meter measures electromagnetic interference in a single-phase AC power line. It plugs into a wall outlet (mains socket) and displays total line noise in millivolts (range 1999 mV, resolution 1 mV) in the frequency range 10 KHz – 10 MHz. A speaker plays the sound of the EMI, amplitude demodulated, in order to identify the EMI source (such as an AM or shortwave radio station vs. a motor vs. an electric arc). It's relatively cheap ($130-170). Go to: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Line-Li.../dp/B00OY2NKAC. I'm sure you can measure lots of other interferences with more complicated and expensive devices, but for starters this one should do.

Before I got the P.I.Audio Group UberBuss AC conditioner, I bought one and measurements were very interesting...

This is a measurement direct from the wall:

And this is a measurement from the UberBuss: Good result IMO but after the 50 hours of burn-in the result is even better - around 45mV.

Thanks, definitely looks worth checking into.

Just for s**ts and giggles. Do you see any difference in the noise levels during the day or from day to day? Have you tried it on other PLCs?

Do you know if it's measuring common or transverse mode noise?

**comedus76** · 12-08-2016, 07:53 AM

Wow - thank you all for the warm welcome and the practical suggestions. Here's the progress since yesterday:

1. 2 new Furutech outlets (thank you Myles) - on order; now negotiate with bldg. electrician to install it next week
2. EMI line meter - on order (thank you Marcus)
3. Entech wide band noise analyzer (saw a Shunyata video that was using this) - on order

Will report back with measurements next week and impact of new outlets once installed.

Next step will be researching the white paper, setting up a consult with a competent and audio-aware electrician (if I can find one) and looking up Shunyata and Silver Circle offerings as per Myles' suggestions. Quick question here - anyone know the difference between a SC Tchaik 6 and a SC Pure Power 5.0. Best I can tell is that both have a 5KV isolation transformer but the Tchaik has a "Magnetic Wave" something built-in. Substantial price difference so keen to learn impact of the difference.

Thanks again all for the ideas.

P.S: Myles - Thank you for the welcome! I'm on 77th - I'm sure we must have crossed paths in the neighborhood before!

**comedus76** · 12-27-2016, 03:44 PM

After some holiday travel, I resumed my research into eliminating power noise in my system, so here's a quick summary:

- New power outlet (Furutech GTX-D R NCF) installed. Definite improvement though difficult for me to articulate - best I can say is a small improvement in image solidity
- I've been testing the quality of the power using the EMI line meter for the past 5 days; a table with the results is below:

	Direct into Outlet	Plugged into PS Dectet
Daytime1	379mv/122VAC	229mv/122VAC
Night 1	324mv/122VAC	197mv/122VAC
Daytime 2	359mv/123VAC	244mv/122VAC
Night 2	299mv/122VAC	221mv/122VAC
Daytime 3	479mv/123VAC	337mv/122VAC
Night 3	355mv/122VAC	253mc/122VAC
Daytime 4	424mv/122VAC	214mv/122VAC
Night 4	362mv/122VAC	193mv/122VAC
Daytime 5	346mv/123VAC	217mv/122VAC
Night 5	289mv/122VAC	185mv/122VAC

My simplistic reading of this suggests that the input voltage is quite stable while the EMI/EFI leaves room for a lot of improvement. Based on this, I think that more than an isolation transformer a EMI/RFI reduction unit (like a Shunyata Denali or Ansuz MainzD or something similar) should be my first port of call for a in-home trial? Does that make sense?

Happy holidays to everyone and of course, any thoughts welcome!

**kcin** · 12-28-2016, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by comedus76 View Post

Hello all,

New joiner here - been reading for a while and it looked like at least a few of the regulars here are NYC residents, so here goes.

I'm keen to get some friendly advise on cleaning up the power to my components. I live in Manhattan in an apartment building on the Upper East Side. It's close to impossible to carry out any electrical work anytime soon for me (like 20A dedicated lines for the components or replace outlets or some other structural fix). While I'm VERY pleased with the sound (especially after adding S1MkIIs - thanks to Bob @ Rhapsody) I'm getting at the moment, I'm curious if there's something "hidden" in there that I could unearth by addressing the power part of my setup.

I've done the usual reading on the forums and mags trying to get a sense of where to start but most of the advise seems tailored to folks who already have dedicated lines running to their homes and to their listening rooms. In an apartment building scenario, I'm not really sure where to start. Is dirty power coming into the apartment the biggest issue, is the EMI/RFI coming for PC/Networking equipment plugged into other outlets in the house a bigger issue, is grounding good or bad for the building itself, might upgrading the power cords alleviate most of the upstream issues, etc. Is there a way (and is it worthwhile) to measure any of this to actually test where the problems might lie? Since I don't have unlimited funds (not to mention space), I can't simply acquire a full 'stack' of power components.

So the advise I'm looking for is:
1. where to start (line conditioner, distributor, EMI/RFI suppressor, power cords)
2. what products have folks used here in NYC that have helped address one or more of these issues (brands/models)
3. what's the order of priority to allocate funds

Any and all practical advise on how to optimize my setup is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

I hate to be a downer but the likelyhood of you making great positive contributions to your power ingress unlikely in an apartment situation for various reasons- mostly you don't have control over the quality of the distribution system - the landlord does.

The easy stuff:

Myles makes some good points in measuring the power factor of your supply- although in a residential high rise there is little that you might be able to do about it. Also, checking and adjusting that your equipment is one leg of your supply is helpful. Thirdly, you can check the tightness AND cleanliness of connections in the panel and change the receptacles to good quality audio grade types. If you have the luxury to run dedicated lines then by all means do that. All this to be completed by a licensed electrician. Check the fitness of all your receptacles while your at it. They don't last forever and if there has been a myriad of dwellers in the unit before you the spring tension and connectors should be checked- actually you might as well replace them.

Finally check your grounding. In NYC you probably run metallic conduit and armoured cable for fire code and pest protection make sure grounds have integrity.

So work to be done, and if done correctly you will have a positive impact even though you may not be able to alter the main supply hardware and dedicated lines.

In my research work in a previous life we spent countless hours monitoring PF, line voltage , EMI etc . with 24 hour data loggers, strip chart recorders and other equipment. Industrial manufacturing environments posed wild challenges with multiple grounds and phantom currents playing havoc with sensitive control equipment. Your apartment should be a breeze

**Dave Clark** · 12-28-2016, 06:24 PM

Talk to David Stanard at Silver Circle. he is closing shop and has 4 brand new TCHAIK 6s in stock, Perhaps he can work out somethign for you? I own one along with the ByBee AC unit. You could also consider the PS Audio units that regenerate the AC.

**Alrainbow** · 12-28-2016, 11:17 PM

A warm welcome for you. You found a great forums
kind and very smart people.
I promise to read all replies and pit two cents in.
Quickly a few things for you to look into.
One pa do you have dedicated AC outlets. The single outlet amd are they being used or near your setup ?
Do a quick inspection and tightening it all up is a great start. A pic of your panel if there is one in your place is needed.
Daves mention of ps audio I too feel is a good idea to think about. I own a few of them. They really work.
They solve a few common issues.
1- voltage sag as they internally regulate after they conver t back to AC. They also show what THD noise in and out
also D.C. Offset can be determined.
2- is really lower noise many kinds as they regenerate from AC to D.C. And back.
Your system looks nice. I too own a couple of lampi dacs.
Great stuff. Is your dac dsd and pcm ?

Ill read all in the morning and reply.

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Clean power in NYC apartment - possible or red herring??

Clean power in NYC apartment - possible or red herring??

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