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  • #46
    I'm not skeptical that these devices do bring an extra level of "magic" to a high grade system, but the prices are a little daunting. Perhaps the exotic materials contribute to the sound and are necessary. (I gather that the other company -Entreq?-who make a similar grounding box at far cheaper prices does not have the fine materials quality of these). I have experimented with star grounding over the years and it did help quiet the system (very sensitive horns which are prone to revealing inter-component grounding anomalies). I've also used other, less scientific tweaks, e.g. Acoustic Revive Schumann generators, and though I cannot tell you why they work, they definitely do something (interestingly, some people can hear it, others can't). I guess one question for those of you who have gotten on board with these (or the Entreq) is whether you already did electrical power wiring dedicated to your system (something I suspect those who live in apartments, condos or "flats" can't do much about, given the nature of multi-unit dwellings). I did spend for a big isolation transformer that I'm waiting to arrive and expect that it will make an improvement compared just to properly installed dedicated lines and decent subpanel. I suppose if you treat this as a "component," the $50k or whatever doesn't seem as painful, and it does improve the whole system, not just one part of it (though I seem to recall that the manufacturer advice for these is to experiment with which components are connected, no? That is, you may obtain better sound by not having everything grounded to it?)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
      I'm not skeptical that these devices do bring an extra level of "magic" to a high grade system, but the prices are a little daunting. Perhaps the exotic materials contribute to the sound and are necessary. (I gather that the other company -Entreq?-who make a similar grounding box at far cheaper prices does not have the fine materials quality of these). I have experimented with star grounding over the years and it did help quiet the system (very sensitive horns which are prone to revealing inter-component grounding anomalies). I've also used other, less scientific tweaks, e.g. Acoustic Revive Schumann generators, and though I cannot tell you why they work, they definitely do something (interestingly, some people can hear it, others can't). I guess one question for those of you who have gotten on board with these (or the Entreq) is whether you already did electrical power wiring dedicated to your system (something I suspect those who live in apartments, condos or "flats" can't do much about, given the nature of multi-unit dwellings). I did spend for a big isolation transformer that I'm waiting to arrive and expect that it will make an improvement compared just to properly installed dedicated lines and decent subpanel. I suppose if you treat this as a "component," the $50k or whatever doesn't seem as painful, and it does improve the whole system, not just one part of it (though I seem to recall that the manufacturer advice for these is to experiment with which components are connected, no? That is, you may obtain better sound by not having everything grounded to it?)
      My experience with these devices Bill including the AR Schumann and some others is that they all make a difference but in context of Lamm and my tastes the change was always for the worse and less natural even with standard house/apartment wiring. I found the sound is always more constrained and more homogenized using such devices, of course tastes vary and some like this type of sound and depending on one's choice of cables and cords you're just adding more of the same with these devices.

      david
      Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers.
      Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.
      Systems, showroom links:
      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by david k View Post

        My experience with these devices Bill including the AR Schumann and some others is that they all make a difference but in context of Lamm and my tastes the change was always for the worse and less natural even with standard house/apartment wiring. I found the sound is always more constrained and more homogenized using such devices, of course tastes vary and some like this type of sound and depending on one's choice of cables and cords you're just adding more of the same with these devices.

        david
        You are speaking about your experiences with these devices, David. Are you (also) referring to any experience with the Tripoint devices? I have a lot of experience with various Tripoint devices in two (high quality) different systems and I do not recognize at all words like "constrained" and "homogenized".

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        • #49
          Of course I'm talking about my experience and in my own system, though I heard the same qualities over at some friend's homes too. I did have a Tripoint box here too, don't remember the model but it was top of the line about 2 years ago with matching wires, not your emperor. As I mentioned above it's a personal taste you might like what they do or depending on the system you might not notice the same things if your wires are already doing similar things. Unfortunately we haven't heard each other's systems and it's difficult to know our reference points but I know how they work in a Lamm based system and neutral wires, hence my comments for Bill.

          david
          Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers.
          Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.
          Systems, showroom links:
          http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
          http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by david k View Post

            My experience with these devices Bill including the AR Schumann and some others is that they all make a difference but in context of Lamm and my tastes the change was always for the worse and less natural even with standard house/apartment wiring. I found the sound is always more constrained and more homogenized using such devices, of course tastes vary and some like this type of sound and depending on one's choice of cables and cords you're just adding more of the same with these devices.

            david
            With the Schumann in my old room, it seemed to tighten things up; in this new room, at least based on initial placement 6 ft off the ground behind my listening position, I found that it softened the sound, less impact, high frequencies seemed rounded, less visceral sounding. I may move it around and see if it improves, but I wasn't liking what the Schumann did when I tried it in my new digs yesterday. Granted, I'm still dialing in the system. Worked on VTA yesterday. Initially, I was afraid I couldn't do VTA on the fly using the Minus K, but I could--the thing is obviously bouncy if you put any downward pressure or mass on it, but dialing the Kuzma arm -- what I would call a Vernier gauge, though not sure that is the correct term for the dial--didn't jar the arm at all. Much better now, musically.

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            • #51
              Chassis or signal grounding will improve the sound it tends to uncompress and remove coloration if there is any in the audio cables. The trick is to make sure the scheme is large enough. Most all of the grounding wires are too small to make two distinct paths;one for the audio signal and the other for all the common mode noise to exit back to ground. When bonding equipment that will add a complete circuit comprising the IC's and the new grounding scheme.
              Preamp Accuphase C200 modded, Agtron Platinum Mono Blocks,ParAcas Satellites,dual subwoofer,Velodyne FSR18,Monarchy NM24 modded tube DAC,NBS Statement ,Master,Pro cables,Crown 844's & 824 R2R,Technics table,Linn LP12,Ampex R2R MR70's,AG440B-C,350,Studer C37

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by david k View Post
                Of course I'm talking about my experience and in my own system, though I heard the same qualities over at some friend's homes too. I did have a Tripoint box here too, don't remember the model but it was top of the line about 2 years ago with matching wires, not your emperor. As I mentioned above it's a personal taste you might like what they do or depending on the system you might not notice the same things if your wires are already doing similar things. Unfortunately we haven't heard each other's systems and it's difficult to know our reference points but I know how they work in a Lamm based system and neutral wires, hence my comments for Bill.

                david
                Probably you heard the Tripoint Troy with its standard grounding wires. On (real) high quality set ups - read: really transparent audio systems - you can hear that these standard wires are not fully up to their task. With better/higher quality grounding wires you do not experience the sonic results you described in one of your previous posts. You don't (only) have to take my word for this: a considerable number of audiophiles all over our planet with totally different systems (including horn based set ups) have different experiences from yours. So maybe you can try to use the Tripoint again in your system(s) with higher quality grounding wires and give it some time (at least a few hours): the Tripoint devices need some time to settle in before you can fully hear what they are doing.

                Comment


                • Marcus
                  Marcus commented
                  Editing a comment
                  With the Troy Signature you get four silver cables of different lengths. They are indeed not expensive ($300-400) considering the cost of the groundig unit. If you want something better from Tripoint, you can buy Thor SE ($5.000) or Emperor which is much more expensive. My question is, why don't more cable manufacturers make groundig cables? One can only choose from Tripoint, Entreq, Dalby, perhaps from somebody else but not from many more. But the david's experience is not related to groundig cables IMO but to the groundig itself. Have no idea why he heard degradations that are so uncharacteristic for the Troy Signature. As audiocrack said, it needs time to settle in - at least 3 days to get approx. 80% of performance IME.
                  Last edited by Marcus; 06-21-2017, 09:02 AM.

                • david k
                  david k commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The cable guys are catching on and there's going to be many ridiculously priced ground wires soon Marcus, Nordost already has some! There's no reason for this type of grounding to improve the sound, what's the science here? I get exactly the same sonic results (a negative or positive valuations is up to the individual) if I connect the chassis to a radiator, a metal window frame or a $30 ground rod from home depot, so you're right I don't think it's because of the wires either. You should try these methods yourself and compare it to the magic box.

                  You already have the electrical ground IMO the most important thing to get right and then the equipment get grounded again through the interconnects and now you add another layer of chassis grounding with these boxes, why shouldn't it veil the sound? What's there to get settled in for several days? I heard it the moment I connected the first wire no different from what I heard in the system the box came from where my friend waited for a month for it to sound different. I'll be honest here even if I did hear a positive the idea of paying thousands of dollars to someone selling a wood box full of nothing they're willing to disclose with some ground wire goes against all my principles.

                  david

                • RogerD
                  RogerD commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Copper wire is all that needed and you can have them custom made on ebay from 6 awg to 0 gauge. Is there any audio signal going through the cable? No,there is no mystery or esoterica. It is the sample principle of bonding pro audio equipment and look how low the noise floor is on modern recordings.

              • #53
                Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0116.JPG Views:	1 Size:	3.36 MB ID:	57046Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0115.JPG Views:	1 Size:	3.37 MB ID:	57045

                Finally decent Tripoint Troy Elite photos. It looks gorgeous in black. Perhaps even better than Bubinga wood.
                Source: Kuzma XL DC, Kuzma 4Point 14 inch, Benz Micro LP-S MR; Phono: Zanden 1200 Mk3; Tuner: Magnum Dynalab MD-108T Signature; Line Stage: conrad-johnson GAT Series 2; Power amp: conrad-johnson ART; Speakers: Avalon Time; Grounding: Tripoint Troy Signature & Thor SE; Cable system: Cardas Clear & Clear Beyond; Stands: Finite Elemente Master Reference & Master Reference Heavy Duty; Power conditioner: P.I.Audio: UberBuss with Furutech FI-E30 NCF; Acoustics treatment: Svanå Miljöteknik AB (SMT);

                Comment


                • #54
                  Originally posted by Audiocrack View Post

                  Probably you heard the Tripoint Troy with its standard grounding wires. On (real) high quality set ups - read: really transparent audio systems - you can hear that these standard wires are not fully up to their task. With better/higher quality grounding wires you do not experience the sonic results you described in one of your previous posts. You don't (only) have to take my word for this: a considerable number of audiophiles all over our planet with totally different systems (including horn based set ups) have different experiences from yours. So maybe you can try to use the Tripoint again in your system(s) with higher quality grounding wires and give it some time (at least a few hours): the Tripoint devices need some time to settle in before you can fully hear what they are doing.
                  Maybe, I just remember that it said Tripoint on the front panel and it came with some silver wires. You might be right about their more expensive models but in my books when an already expensive product degrades the sound and I'm told to spend more raises a lot of red flags, at the very least if it doesn't help it shouldn't degrade either. While you might be right about the people who're happily living with such products fact is that we have no idea about the situation of majority of users. IME for high end audio mass consensus is generally meaningless but if the opportunity arises I will give one of the newer boxes a try again Rudy.

                  david
                  Last edited by david k; 06-21-2017, 12:01 AM. Reason: grammer
                  Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers.
                  Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.
                  Systems, showroom links:
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

                  Comment


                  • #55
                    Here's first feedback from the early adopter of Troy Elite:

                    "My first stuff from AE was the Troy grouding box, this is the most effective device getting rid of grounding noises and we can't listen to music without it. I have 2 Troy serving the front sources/preamp and the other one serving my AMPs and QL subwoofers. Today I replaced one of my Troy with the latest Troy Elite - the black gold, and paired up another Troy with a Dalby grounding cable to serve my front sources and preamp. The outcome really surpassed my expectations, as I thought the improvements could be marginal, the truth is that the outcome is tremendous, the black gold definitely lifts up my gears to another level of darkness but also preserving and enhancing more dynamics and nano-details of the music, that reproduce a much more 3D and continuity of the music that I never experienced before, and it is very clear and easy to tell the differences between the Troy Signature and Troy Elite. hi, Miguel, when will be the delivery of the second patch of black gold. I need another one."

                    ...and Miguels's answer:


                    "Thanks for sharing your experience with the Troy Elite. Troy Elite will continue to improve as it burn in and becomes even more organic. Your enthusiasm is my pain, as I too have to wait for my own unit. The first production run of 14 units is all sold out. I know they are at least 10 people that have deposits on the incoming inventory. Even Audio Exotic showroom doesn't have a demo unit. I'm currently working as fast as possible to accommodate everyone."

                    Despite the high price, demand seems to be high..




                    Source: Kuzma XL DC, Kuzma 4Point 14 inch, Benz Micro LP-S MR; Phono: Zanden 1200 Mk3; Tuner: Magnum Dynalab MD-108T Signature; Line Stage: conrad-johnson GAT Series 2; Power amp: conrad-johnson ART; Speakers: Avalon Time; Grounding: Tripoint Troy Signature & Thor SE; Cable system: Cardas Clear & Clear Beyond; Stands: Finite Elemente Master Reference & Master Reference Heavy Duty; Power conditioner: P.I.Audio: UberBuss with Furutech FI-E30 NCF; Acoustics treatment: Svanå Miljöteknik AB (SMT);

                    Comment


                    • #56
                      Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                      Here's first feedback from the early adopter of Troy Elite:

                      "My first stuff from AE was the Troy grouding box, this is the most effective device getting rid of grounding noises and we can't listen to music without it. I have 2 Troy serving the front sources/preamp and the other one serving my AMPs and QL subwoofers. Today I replaced one of my Troy with the latest Troy Elite - the black gold, and paired up another Troy with a Dalby grounding cable to serve my front sources and preamp. The outcome really surpassed my expectations, as I thought the improvements could be marginal, the truth is that the outcome is tremendous, the black gold definitely lifts up my gears to another level of darkness but also preserving and enhancing more dynamics and nano-details of the music, that reproduce a much more 3D and continuity of the music that I never experienced before, and it is very clear and easy to tell the differences between the Troy Signature and Troy Elite. hi, Miguel, when will be the delivery of the second patch of black gold. I need another one."

                      ...and Miguels's answer:


                      "Thanks for sharing your experience with the Troy Elite. Troy Elite will continue to improve as it burn in and becomes even more organic. Your enthusiasm is my pain, as I too have to wait for my own unit. The first production run of 14 units is all sold out. I know they are at least 10 people that have deposits on the incoming inventory. Even Audio Exotic showroom doesn't have a demo unit. I'm currently working as fast as possible to accommodate everyone."

                      Despite the high price, demand seems to be high..



                      Thanks Marcus. Quality has its price.

                      It will probably take some time before the Troy elite will 'land' in the USA but that will be a new opportunity for the non believers to have a serious listen (with hopefully - that is hopefully for themselves🤕 - an open (audio) mind).

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