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  • $500,000 Riddle

    Why should the quality of a power cord make a difference with a power line conditioner?
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

  • #2
    Neither will make a difference if your main power is noisy, poor grounds, weak breakers or loose connections.
    Chris
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

    Comment


    • #3
      We might ask as well: Why should dedicated AC lines make a difference if one already uses an AC regenerator unit (in my case a PS Audio P10)? The addition of two dedicated AC lines in my case DID make a positive difference with much lower noise and improved imaging, even though I'd previously installed the P10 (which itself brought considerable improvement).

      I admit that, after adding the P10 and the dedicated AC lines, I've not removed my audiophile-approved AC cords from the system to see whether they are having no positive effect by themselves. Perhaps this is because I'm a bit lazy or my OCD level is less than that of some other folks?
      Lyra Kleos SL, Dynavector XX-2MKII, VPI JMW 10.5i, VPI Aries, VPI SDS, ModWright PH-150 Reference Phono, Sony HAP-Z1ES server, McIntosh MR80, McIntosh C2300, McIntosh MC352, Vandersteen 5A, PS Audio P10, Bright Star Audio Rack of Gibraltar. Cables: Shunyata Cobra Ztron IC, PS Audio Statement AC, Synergistic Research AC, Harmonic Tech Silver Phono, Cable Research Labs Silver IC, Audioquest Gibraltar bi-wire.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
        Why should the quality of a power cord make a difference with a power line conditioner?
        Ask 10 engineers and you'll get ten different answers, I'm going crazy trying to figure out why the ground wire coming from outside into the electrical panel has a huge, HUGE! impact on the sound when only one system component is grounded...

        david
        Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
        Distribution: NEODIO

        Special Sales: van den Hul
        Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

        Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
        http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
        http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

        Comment


        • #5
          Curious, which component? Amp? Source?
          Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

          Comment


          • david k
            david k commented
            Editing a comment
            System is in the links under my signature. The grounded component is currently the phonostage otherwise it would be the preamp.
            david

        • #6
          David- wasn't this the classic "float all grounds except preamp" approach that was around back in the day? The question of why- each component has a different grounding scheme, and different grounding potentials which can cause noise- I can hear it if something is off on my horns- i don't doubt you can on yours. By lifting the grounds on everything except one component, and using the interconnects to 'star ground' to a central point, you are minimizing that, or so the theory goes. (Somebody that can speak to electrical circuits competently can correct me. It is also my understanding that this is regarded as a serious shock or fire hazard in the event that something goes awry, violates code, nullifies insurance claims, etc. but ground lifting was pretty common. I always had issues with the Lamm ML2 in that respect...).

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
            David- wasn't this the classic "float all grounds except preamp" approach that was around back in the day? The question of why- each component has a different grounding scheme, and different grounding potentials which can cause noise- I can hear it if something is off on my horns- i don't doubt you can on yours. By lifting the grounds on everything except one component, and using the interconnects to 'star ground' to a central point, you are minimizing that, or so the theory goes. (Somebody that can speak to electrical circuits competently can correct me. It is also my understanding that this is regarded as a serious shock or fire hazard in the event that something goes awry, violates code, nullifies insurance claims, etc. but ground lifting was pretty common. I always had issues with the Lamm ML2 in that respect...).
            Hi Bill,
            What worked then still works today, that's why its a classic. There's no additional danger of electrocution if you ground one over all components but there's a sonic element to which way you go. You can even ground lift everything off the mains and ground them through a chassis. Ground sensitivity isn't just a Lamm issue, Denon doesn't even provide the 3rd pin on their equipment. The last 3 years I had the opportunity to try several different ground configurations and I'm amazed on the sonic impact of earthing on the system. I'm not talking about the mystery boxes which either did nothing or had negative impact in my system, this is real engineer designed ground networks.

            david
            Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
            Distribution: NEODIO

            Special Sales: van den Hul
            Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

            Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
            http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
            http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

            Comment


            • Alrainbow
              Alrainbow commented
              Editing a comment
              That is not true , you can be shocked by any ungrounded component unless it's made to be ungrounded . Not all ground terminals on devices are grounded to the case . But I do see your point it does stop the ground loops

          • #8
            Originally posted by david k View Post

            Hi Bill,
            What worked then still works today, that's why its a classic. There's no additional danger of electrocution if you ground one over all components but there's a sonic element to which way you go. You can even ground lift everything off the mains and ground them through a chassis. Ground sensitivity isn't just a Lamm issue, Denon doesn't even provide the 3rd pin on their equipment. The last 3 years I had the opportunity to try several different ground configurations and I'm amazed on the sonic impact of earthing on the system. I'm not talking about the mystery boxes which either did nothing or had negative impact in my system, this is real engineer designed ground networks.

            david
            Is this akin to the Namiki polarity tester or unplugging the ICs from each component, measuring the voltage between the chassis and ground of receptacle one way, then reversing the AC plug, measuring again and choosing the lowest value?
            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
            -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
            -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

            Comment


            • #9
              Myles, I think David is talking about using cheaters or eliminating the third pin (or not connecting it somehow), rather than plug orientation. You know, a "Full Lumley."*


              ________
              *Do you know what a "Full Cleveland" is? BTW, I have one of those polarity testers- have to check who made it- haven't used it in years.

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
                Myles, I think David is talking about using cheaters or eliminating the third pin (or not connecting it somehow), rather than plug orientation. You know, a "Full Lumley."*


                ________
                *Do you know what a "Full Cleveland" is? BTW, I have one of those polarity testers- have to check who made it- haven't used it in years.
                Namiki.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                  Is this akin to the Namiki polarity tester or unplugging the ICs from each component, measuring the voltage between the chassis and ground of receptacle one way, then reversing the AC plug, measuring again and choosing the lowest value?
                  No Myles this doesn't have anything to do with polarity its about the ground. You can use cheaters but in my case I break the ground pin off the cord's plug.

                  https://www.grainger.com/product/LEV...AS01?$smthumb$

                  An example of what I mean by ground networks, I buried 4 different types of conductors of various configuration and materials in the back yard, this is only one of them.
                  Click image for larger version

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                  david
                  Last edited by david k; 06-06-2016, 06:49 AM.
                  Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
                  Distribution: NEODIO

                  Special Sales: van den Hul
                  Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

                  Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by david k View Post

                    No Myles this doesn't have anything to do with polarity its about the ground. You can use cheaters but in my case I break the ground pin off the cord's plug.

                    https://www.grainger.com/product/LEV...AS01?$smthumb$

                    An example of what I mean by ground networks, I buried 4 different types of conductors of various configuration and materials in the back yard, this is only one of them.
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]n17632[/ATTACH]


                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]n17633[/ATTACH]


                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]n17634[/ATTACH]


                    david
                    That's serious! Why different metals?

                    On a lighter note, did you sign up for SETA?
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                      That's serious! Why different metals?
                      Materials, not metals. The conductors are all copper but have different configuration, the material is different types of GEM or ground enhancing materials that encase the conductor in the ground.

                      Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
                      On a lighter note, did you sign up for SETA?
                      Not if we're thinking of the same SETA ! System Engineering & Technical Assistance?

                      david
                      Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
                      Distribution: NEODIO

                      Special Sales: van den Hul
                      Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

                      Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
                      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
                      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by david k View Post

                        Materials, not metals. The conductors are all copper but have different configuration, the material is different types of GEM or ground enhancing materials that encase the conductor in the ground.



                        Not if we're thinking of the same SETA ! System Engineering & Technical Assistance?

                        david

                        There's a lot of info in the thread though it's getting a little convulated.

                        So I guess before I try and get back to the original question, is what can an apartment dweller do given their limited ability to change things to optimize their AC? Al? Anyone?
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                        -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          So let me return to the original question. If a PLC is supposed to remedy all the issues in the AC line, why, short of constricting dynamics due to poor design, should a power cord make a bit of difference? Conversely then, what in the AC line is not being addressed by the PLC?
                          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                          ________________________________________

                          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                          -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                          Comment


                          • cpp
                            cpp commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I was under the impression from all my years working at numerous major design and engineering companies that clean power coming into the building trumps all. But, if one lives in an appt or a building that is owned by someone else you have no other choice but to clean the power within your home with a PLC. A power cord , well its never worked for me with dirty power regardless how much the AC cord cost and if a person has used a quality PLC why in the world would you spend more money on some fancy AC power cord. ps: PLC does not address the building or AC ground you need to address that at the main grounding source with the power company and your electrician.
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