Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Nordost's Qkore Grounding System

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Don,
    I have a ufer ground. What if I took a copper ground rod and put #2 to it. In the panel I change my bonding wire from my service Bond point to my audio grounds and neutrals as noted above to #2. I now split bolt the ground rod and all my audio neutral and grounds to it. Lets assume there are no circuits electrically connected to my audio that are fed by the non audio circuits. I don't think I would be creating any ground loops. I I'm still bonded to my incoming service as is the rest of the grounding in the house. Would this create any ground noise in your estimation? Or could it be an effective way to isolate the audio system and provide a highly effective ground to shed noise away from it.

    If I did something like this, would I want the ground rod located next to my ufer ground or would I want it driven some distance away?

    Also, do you use bare copper ground wire or do you want it sheathed to keep corrosion\| oxidization from building up on the bare copper.
    Pure Audio Project Trio 10/Voxativ, Transition Audio 811A Triode monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI, Custom TT with Vertere tone arm, Allnic H1201, Denon 103R Midas Saphire with line contact diamond. Mojo Audio CAT Server with remote Illuminati power supply, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC. Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

    Comment


    • don
      don commented
      Editing a comment
      Kingrex

      When you say that you have an ufer ground,do you have a separate ufer or the original that was installed when the structure was built? All concrete structures have ufer grounds when they are built in the past 30 years or so. It simply uses a 20 ft piece of footer steel as an electrode and then the ground rod is a supplement to that. If you have that ufer then the entire structure is an electrode. In older structures that did not have an ufer they can have a separate one installed which would simply be the steel rod laying horizontal and a formed psuedo footer filled with concrete just under the surface of the earth. If that is the one that you are referring too then you would only need ISO circuits which separate the grounds for the audio from the Neutrals and bonding bar by way of an isolated ground bar in your panel this would require the audio circuits to be direct home runs and the neutrals will only be isolated from the ground at the wall outlet for the equipment, and then a run of at least a # 4 wire to the original ground rod from the ISO bar. Unsheathed Solid wire is only used for bonding and the largest size is a # 6. for grounding I prefer thwn. and I also prefer at least a # 1. However if you have an original ufer that was used when the structure was built the best possible ground for audio is a supplemental ground rod which would be installed as close to the audio equipment as possible ( to create a shorter path), in any case the ground for this needs to be a shorter distance that the original ground. You can only do this if you have a separate sub panel for the audio, The new electrode needs to be tied to the existing electrode. What this accomplishes is the shortest path to the ground and can only be installed for specialty equipment.If you have a sub panel for audio you would isolate the grounds and neutral to the new rod inside the panel by way of an iso bar and bond the metal of the panel to the original ground electrode and bond the new rod to the old rod in the panel. To sum it up the new rod would have two #1 thwn going to the sub panel one #1 will connect to the iso bars and the other will connect to the bond lug with the original. There will be no loops as electricity always takes the shortest path to ground which is what this accomplishes. I hope that I was able to explain this correctly if not let me know.
      Don

    • Kingrex
      Kingrex commented
      Editing a comment
      Don, I'm getting kind of confused. You seem to know grounding so I'm reaching out. Your answer went a little to broad. Let me break down what I have. I built the house 8 years ago. I have a NEC compliant ufer that is 20 feet of rebar in the footer tied to all the other building steel in the foundation. It is not required to have a ground rod as supplemental in Seattle so I don't have one. I was thinking of adding one.

      I get what you are saying about split bolting. I have to read up on the clamp I have in hand. They all have different size ratings and conductor capacity ratings. I could also use a copper ground bar on an isolation stand. Many for sale with #14 to #4 holes.


      I don't have a sub panel as I have one circuit in a non metallic jacket feeding my gear. My audio is 6 feet up and 8 feet over from my panel. I some times wonder if I am so close to the panel that noise has an easy time getting back into my gear.


      My biggest questions is of the relationship between the ufer ground and the supplemental ground (ground rod). If I add a ground rod, is it suppose to be outside the electrical plane of the ufer ground or inside the plane. My ufer emanates 2 feet from my panel. Earth is a terrible conductor, but could any noise from the grounds attached to the ufer pass through the earth and get back into the audio ground rod. I know there has been talk about how close grounding electrodes are suppose to be from each other. I want to avoid having them react with each other.

      Thanks

  • #32
    Kingrex

    Ufer is slang for Herbert Ufer who designed the bldg. steel grounding for the military. What you have is a compliant ground per the NECA, I am not sure why there is no ground rod, as a compliant grounding has three components, bldg. steel, and a 3/4" copper water pipe that is at least 10 ft long and a minimum 5/8 x 10 ft driven rod with the ground conductor starting at the steel to the rod , the water pipe and then dead end at the panel lug (unbroken.) This would produce a ground that should be less than 5 ohms to the earth.

    A supplemental ground rod must be connected to the compliant ground at the panel termination. Some companies such as cable and phone use a dead end ground rod which is not compliant and can produce loops.They are using it for bonding not grounding and inadvertently it is tied back into the system by way of the neutrals. They create a multitude of problems for feedback.

    Is the earth where you are rock or sandy soil? If you are on sandy soil then a supplemental rod will help immensely but if you are on rock then your ground is fine providing there is no fault with the connections,( that is why supplemental rods are used as a fail safe) where does the conductor from the bldg steel terminate, is the question? If it terminates inside the meter then a rod would help, if it terminates in the main disconnect or main distribution panel then an isolated ground bar installed in that location with only the ground to your system and a jumper to the original grounding conductor. The neutrals should not be taken off of the original lug bar. The purpose is to separate the grounds from the metal bonding and Neutrals (because at that location all three become one) and to create a shorter direct path to the earth, the neutrals are not an issue for this type of system. I use to install 200 % neutrals for critical systems to solve any harmonics from the neutrals.

    The supplemental rod has to be attached to the existing ground at some point which in this case would be at the termination of the ufer conductor by way of a double lug and bonded to the metal. It has no maximum distance requirements however it is common practice to have a minimum of 6 ft distance from the original ground.

    Noise from the ufer ground will not find its way back into the system through a rod, the ufer is not just the 20 ft rebar, it is the entire structure of concrete and steel and if it did loop back, it would dissipate into the earth providing that the rod is installed correctly.

    If it was my house, I would install a 3/4 " copper rod driven ten feet into the earth at 6 ft min. from the point of where the ground from the ufer exits the footer. I would use a # 4 copper conductor that is sheathed to the ISO bar,where the audio ground and a jumper to the original ground connects in the panel. The wall outlet needs to be an ISO device, Hubbel makes a hospital grade receptacle for this,for about $18.00 and you will not get a better one for any amount of money. Personally I would use a cad weld connection at the ground rod. By doing this we have created a insulated perfect ground for the audio and there will not be any ground feedback from any of the electrical system to the audio. You would then have peace of mind that any noise is not from the system ground. ( The neutrals do not cause this type of noise.)

    Don

    Last edited by don; 08-08-2018, 08:13 PM.

    Comment


    • #33
      Don

      Really liked your posts not sure I understood it all.

      I have one question about the grounding post or stake that goes in the ground .

      I have a underground Propane tank 15,000 or 18,000 Gallon tank when I installed it I had to surround it with sand then a grounding stake was put in 4 or 5 feet from the tank around the stake holes were drilled and filled with granular martial that increases the current flow they come and test it each year no charge .

      Would this Material what ever it is help a ground stake on a audio system.

      Garth

      Comment


      • don
        don commented
        Editing a comment
        It would depend on several factors, what is your soil condition, is it soft sand or rocky? What is the sea level to your property, is it more than 10 ft? Basically if the ground rod is driven into the sea level through a compacted soil then you will not need any other material. The tank possibly does not have 10 ft stakes and that is why they would use the conductive material.

        Don

      • Garth
        Garth commented
        Editing a comment
        I do not think you can get farther from the sea than I am it is rare to see a seagull and I live on the water.
        Thanks for your input the nearest salt water the Hudson Bay straight north.
        Driving a pin 10 feet in this rock pile would take time could you ground to a well they go down 150 or more feet here.

      • don
        don commented
        Editing a comment
        What I meant to say is that the water table is the reference to sea level. You do not need to live by salt water or have the rod in water either. If you dig down 2.8 ft at my house you hit sea water. The moisture content in the soil is what gives the grounding electrode the best conductivity. However a good hard soil is fine , soft sand would require some type of material that is conductive. You can drive the ground rod very easy with a Roto Hammer and a rod driving attachment,( I am sure that you could rent one) trying to use a sledge hammer in rocky material is a futile effort.
        Since you are on such hard ground then I do not think that you would need any material at all, especially if it is rock. I thought about your propane tank and I believe that the stakes that you are talking about is for secondary bonding and I seem to remember that they are only a couple feet in length and they dig the hole deeper and fill with silica sand so corrosion won't occur ( that is the reason for the material).

        The tank grounding is at the entrance of the gas pipe to your house. You should have no problem obtaining a very good ground in hard rocky soil. I would use a copper 5/8 x 10 ft rod.

        Don

    • #34
      Don,
      It was a pleasure speaking with you this morning. I am going to take a good listen to my system again, then make changes as you suggest. Once I understand what each topology is providing (at my place), I will take some pictures and post my findings.

      Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on grounding.
      Pure Audio Project Trio 10/Voxativ, Transition Audio 811A Triode monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI, Custom TT with Vertere tone arm, Allnic H1201, Denon 103R Midas Saphire with line contact diamond. Mojo Audio CAT Server with remote Illuminati power supply, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC. Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

      Comment


      • don
        don commented
        Editing a comment
        It was my pleasure.

        Don

    • #35
      [QUOTE=Garth;n94222]Don

      Would this Material what ever it is help a ground stake on a audio system.


      Garth, if your on shale your in a world of hurt. I run into river bed rock and clay in Seattle and it takes a 60 lb electric jackhammer to get a rod driven through. One took over an hour.

      look up Erico GEM. It is ground enhancement material made exactly for what you were doing. Bettering the connection of the ground rod to Earth and keeping it from drying out. If you use a substance like this you would need to dig a deep Trench and drop your ground rod into it. I would look to the North or northeast side of your house where the sun does not dry the soil as much.

      Pure Audio Project Trio 10/Voxativ, Transition Audio 811A Triode monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI, Custom TT with Vertere tone arm, Allnic H1201, Denon 103R Midas Saphire with line contact diamond. Mojo Audio CAT Server with remote Illuminati power supply, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC. Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

      Comment

      Working...
      X