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  • PerfectWave P5 vs Torus RM20

    Two solutions that are 180 degree opposite of each other. Give me your case against each, for or against.
    Marty

  • #2
    I own the PsAudio P10, but sometimes I only connect to it the sources and preamplifier - the power amplifier is connected to another independent power line.
    The P10 regenerates (recreates) the mains from DC - this means it will almost completely insulate your system from the local mains. It gives a noiseless, distortionless (<.1%) and stabilized mains and also protects your valuable equipment from dangerous fluctuations of mains, and will switch off in dangerous conditions. I feel much happier leaving some part of the system permanently on with it.

    However I have found that is some cases, power amplifiers seem less dynamic when used with the P10 - it is why I power them directly from the mains.


    I never tried the Torus RM20, experiences with high power, but only average quality, isolation transformers resulted in no change or degradation of sound quality.

    Ideally a system should not need any of these add-ons - many people will tell you that equipment properly designed has its own isolation transformers, and the complexity of most audiophile systems is very low - only a few apparatus.
    My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by microstrip View Post
      I never tried the Torus RM20, experiences with high power, but only average quality, isolation transformers resulted in no change or degradation of sound quality.

      Ideally a system should not need any of these add-ons - many people will tell you that equipment properly designed has its own isolation transformers, and the complexity of most audiophile systems is very low - only a few apparatus.
      My experience is that the power environment in most homes has gotten very dirty. If I walk around my home, there are many, many small switching power supplies used to charge cell phones, tablets, laptops and numerous other devices. Plus there are wireless phones, wifi signals, cellphones spewing RF. Many of these high frequency signals end up on the power lines and injected into our devices. And it's also safe to say that the majority of power supplies for audio equipment don't spend much time worrying about trying to filter out these unwanted signals. Many power transformers are quite wideband and just pass these unwanted signals straight through to your amplifiers and preamplifiers. Some devices deal with RF gracefully but many don't. So a power conditioner that intentionally filters out a lot of these unwanted signals is a good thing.

      Traditional isolation transformers are very wide band and don't do much to block these unwanted signals that sit on top of the power line. The Torus power conditioners use transformers from Plitron that are specially designed to cancel out a lot of this noise. Plitron calls it their NBT technology for narrow band technology. For those who want to dive really deep, it's covered by a patent - US6087822. I don't own a Torus power conditioner but I've listened to them at friends houses and they really do seem to work. But like any isolation transformer, one needs to size them big enough that they don't limit the current.

      The power conditioner that I do own is an Audience RP12, which just consists of capacitors and common mode chokes to intentionally filter out noise from each outlet. I find it to be quite effective in getting rid of unwanted powerline noise. And since it doesn't use transformers, it doesn't have as much trouble with higher power devices.

      And in case anyone is wondering, I have no commercial interest in any of this stuff. I just have a technical background and like to understand the underlying technology behind what we all listen to.

      ---Gary



      Analog: Scheu + Immedia RPM tonearm + Koetsu Black + Pass Xono or Threshold FET 10pe
      Amps: First Watt F7, HK Citation II
      Pre-Amps: CJ Premier 14, Threshold FET 10e, DIY 417a with output transformer
      Speakers: Horning Eufrodite, Reference 3A mm de capo
      Tuners: Sansui TU9900, McIntosh MR78
      Digital: i7 Server (Roon) + SSD, Sonore urendu + Mutec MC3+ USB + Berkeley Alpha Dac, Audiomeca Mephisto
      Power: Audience AR12, Torus Tot, DIY filters

      Comment


      • #4
        Gary I think the Audience sits between the PS Audio and the Torus devices. A simple capacitor across the hot and neutral can do wonders in some systems.
        Marty

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nc42acc View Post
          Gary I think the Audience sits between the PS Audio and the Torus devices. A simple capacitor across the hot and neutral can do wonders in some systems.
          Marty,
          I agree that a simpler capacitor filter can do wonders in some systems. But the Audience is more than just that.
          ---Gary
          Analog: Scheu + Immedia RPM tonearm + Koetsu Black + Pass Xono or Threshold FET 10pe
          Amps: First Watt F7, HK Citation II
          Pre-Amps: CJ Premier 14, Threshold FET 10e, DIY 417a with output transformer
          Speakers: Horning Eufrodite, Reference 3A mm de capo
          Tuners: Sansui TU9900, McIntosh MR78
          Digital: i7 Server (Roon) + SSD, Sonore urendu + Mutec MC3+ USB + Berkeley Alpha Dac, Audiomeca Mephisto
          Power: Audience AR12, Torus Tot, DIY filters

          Comment


          • nc42acc
            nc42acc commented
            Editing a comment
            Sorry Gary I wasn't trying to oversimplify the Audience products just making a statement how simple power line conditioning can be for some areas and systems. The Audience are wonderful products with many accolades.

        • #6
          I haven't used power conditioning in the system for years- I have had a variety of stuff over the years that is now dated, but once I ran dedicated lines from a separate subpanel, I felt comfortable eliminating the conditioning units then in place. That said, the air compressor for my tonearm creates a nasty electrical spike when it kicks on- the little box supplied by Kuzma to wire into the compressor motor didn't eliminate it, nor did running it from another dedicated line. The snap is something you can hear through the system. The only thing that eliminated that problem was a 240 to 120 volt isolation transformer. Now, this isn't about the 'sound' of the system, but isolating a very nasty gremlin. How it applies to clean up the line for audio purposes is a different question.

          Comment


          • #7
            Bill I will not use any piece of equipment NOT connected to some type of protection device. The combination of summer thunderstorms and fluctuating AC I just cannot afford to lose any more equipment.
            Marty

            Comment


            • #8
              I use a PS Audio P5 for my source components for the very reason(s) outlined by microstrip.
              Christian
              System Gear

              Comment


              • nc42acc
                nc42acc commented
                Editing a comment
                Thank you Christian. I am feeling a PS Audio P10 order coming tomorrow. Will use it for all pieces in my system.

            • #9
              Here is something going back years ago that one should also consider about installing dedicated lines and AC power:

              (1) Audiophiles might be advised to hire an electrician (and insist on the following) and have them check that the AC lines running to their equipment is on the same leg - otherwise the AC wave form running to your power transformers on different equipment will be 180 degrees out of phase with some of your other devices. This can increase the noise floor and produce ground loop hum.

              (2) Another might be for the electrician to use a Power Factor Analyzer, measure the two legs and choose the better of the two.

              (3) Finally, have electrician clean the connections and retorque everything to factory specs. Sparky will not want to do this but insist and WATCH them do it.

              (Thanks for these suggestions to Jim Weill! of Sound Applications)





              Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
              Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
              ________________________________________

              -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
              -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
              -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
              -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
              -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
              -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
              -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
              -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
              -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
              -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
                Here is something going back years ago that one should also consider about installing dedicated lines and AC power:dedicated circuits is good and a must . For most systems two is fine if video is used then three video is very noisey.


                If we use the same phase it's fine and I ant sure why using the other phase or other two is bad I never hear any change . The phasing is at 120 degrees making 360 as the whole. Now for grounding and this works you must use one ground point . Meaning one separate ground wire from the source panel and loop in around your outlets. Do not use the internal ground wire of Romex and be cable it is a tiny alum wire and the armor making it not acceptable having multi point grounding. The circuit wiring should be 10 gauge and
                It ona 30 amp circuit. Use hospital grade outlets as this is what audio grade outlets are and sometimes modded.
                Next use a 8 gauge ground as the loop and you should use isolated hospital grade outlets . The ground is isolated to just one screw and not the mounting brackets . The ground wire should go back to source pAnel. The water mAin and ground rod should be looked at to make sure the connections is good. The ground wire you ran should go to the neutral bar as in the source panel the ground and neutral are bonded to each other and the ground wires . One circuit for front end the other for amps. I use many P10 and P5 and swear by them. As for slam missing my woofer towers are 2000 watts each I use one P10 for one tower and one mid tweeter tower. Same on other channel and a P5 for front with no video . Video has its own P5 for all things video including cable internet , cable boxes and dir tv , video processors etc.
                my msb seems to not benefit from my P5 .

                (1) Audiophiles might be advised to hire an electrician (and insist on the following) and have them check that the AC lines running to their equipment is on the same leg - otherwise the AC wave form running to your power transformers on different equipment will be 180 degrees out of phase with some of your other devices. This can increase the noise floor and produce ground loop hum.

                (2) Another might be for the electrician to use a Power Factor Analyzer, measure the two legs and choose the better of the two.

                (3) Finally, have electrician clean the connections and retorque everything to factory specs. Sparky will not want to do this but insist and WATCH them do it.

                (Thanks for these suggestions to Jim Weill! of Sound Applications)




                analog stuff.
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                Dacs lampi various

                Comment


                • #11
                  Anyone taking a serious look at this?

                  http://www.stromtank.com/


                  Or maybe even this?

                  https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall



                  Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Allen have you seen the stromtank in person? It is bigger than an under counter bar refrigerator and if it is full of batteries probably weighs as much as a car. I really like the concept. I think I have decided on balanced transformer conditioning.
                    Marty

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      I saw it at RMAF last year. They are huge. But the size doesn't scare me as much as the price: $30K!
                      Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        A pure battery inverter is really not any better than a. Psaudio regen both have to make AC sign wave power . Now for computer server audio there is a distinct advantage . The three basic voltages can be taped and then regulated. I emailed Paul today about how he feels on less slam for amps . He feels as I do it's not lack of spam it's more about an increase in details . Kind of like going from bad PCM to good dsd . With dsd having a bit less slam but having a more relaxed sound and increase in micro details.
                        analog stuff.
                        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                        sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                        new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                        thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                        thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                        kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                        phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                        speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                        mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                        digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                        Dacs lampi various

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by allenh View Post
                          Anyone taking a serious look at this?

                          http://www.stromtank.com/


                          Or maybe even this?

                          https://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall


                          Tesla is a great brand name for batteries as they make a great car with the batteries custom sizes and are located under the entire length of the car in its own encloser. Now as for home this is simple solar panels and is how they work . A more complete system is to collect the heat or cold as well as the sun to benefit its energy absorbtion .
                          analog stuff.
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                          Dacs lampi various

                          Comment

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