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  • #16
    Great realistic reply. Wonder if you or I will get any likes lol

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
      Fuses I feel matter but making the fuse size larger or bypassing greatly improves things and I no it's bad too lol.
      When you guys clean the connections does anyone clean the fuses and it's sockets. Also most audio fuse sockets stink for what really need to be for us. They should be silver and have a hi pressure to help make better contact
      some actually use alum how the hell can this be good and then Recomend hi end fuses.
      Yes. The B+ fuse socket is a screw in/spring assembly and maintains a tight connection.
      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
      ________________________________________

      Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers, cj ART monoblock Amplifiers; cj GAT preamplifier Series 2; Doshi V3.0 phonostage; VPI Vanquish turntable/12-inch 3D tonearm/Lyra Atlas SL, Ortofon A95, Charisma Reference 2, vdh Colibri Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Fuuga cartridges; Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads/Doshi V3.0 tape stage run balanced; Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, MG Audio, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies Power Cords. Stillpoint Aperture panels, MPod Magico feet, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC. Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks; Audiodharma Cable Cooker; Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

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      • #18
        Actually, the picture posted by Joe Pittman is the only one that makes sense to me when looking at the perspective of a power cord (or actually almost any single-ended interconnect or loudspeaker cable)..... one side is driven, while the other side is a power sink. Neither side works without the other side being connected.

        The driven (live) line tries to maintain a steady 60Hz (or 50Hz) at an electromotive potential of 115V (or 120V or 230V). The neutral line tries to maintain earth-ground potential. Hence, the treatment of the live and neutral in the power cord should be different. Then, there is the ground line - which should usually just be chassis ground, but many designers tie this to signal ground. Even more use this as a filter sink. That is why "ground boxes" work at all.

        When you then take a look at this perspective and examine an amplifier, a power cord goes into the IEC inlet of the component. Many pro-level components (and I am finding them more and more common in audiophile gear too) will have a noise filter built right into the IEC inlet. This filters high-frequency noise from the power lines to ground. Next, the power encounters a power transformer.

        To the incoming power, the primary winding of the power transformer looks like a very large inductor. Very low impedance at low frequencies (depending on the size of the windings this can be just a couple of ohms), but rising impedance at 50Hz or 60Hz so that it only draws a reasonable current. This inductor is also a good filter for non-common mode noise. High frequency common-mode noise (same noise in the live and neutral lines) can be passed from the primary coils to the secondary coils via capacitative coupling. This emerges as common-mode high-frequency noise....... which then hits the bridge of the power supply.

        Since the bridge rectifies AC to DC, and noise is AC, it completely eliminates this high-frequency noise. Even if it doesn't eliminate this high frequency noise, the power-supply coupling capacitors the power next encounters will almost completely eliminate this noise = giving clean DC to the actual amplification circuits. Hence, IMHO filters in power cords can only make matters worse by pre-filtering (and hence raising the impedance of the power supply) before the transformer.

        However, what matters is to design the powercord to support the function of the first internal component encountered - the power transformer. Given this premise, any power cord that has 3 wires twisted together (or however multiple of wires) that function the same does not do it right. Ground, Neutral and Live need to be treated differently.

        Going back to the OP, power conditioners are usually composed of filters (shunt capacitors and inductors). A power cord will supply power to these filters, and while the filter should make the power cord irrelevant, depending on the design might not do so.


        Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
        Power cables are a bottleneck to performance of every device, especially the first one in the chain, in this case the power strip or power conditioner.

        Click image for larger version

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        • #19
          Hello gary hope all is well.
          Heading into a meeting here is a quick
          reply and your power cord not being done correctly stated.
          Perhaps you being one who can make one the right way lol.
          Let me try to make you see my side. This is for USA and 120 volt application although other counties that use only phase potential legs still ground one of the phase legs or between two of them.
          In generated power that is ac there is no movement like D.C. Does. Only a potential and the neutral that you feel is a return is not. Both legs are only a potentential of volts to each other or electrical preasure as some say. . When one is bonded then one becomes what most call a neutral leg. But even in this situation both are a potential of energy to each other and neither one is a supply or return. It's electrical pressure only across them equally meaning not a supply or return as illustrated. My other point is does anyone make a larger ground wire inside a power cord and shield it. In doing so it's closer to Starr groundin method.

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          • garylkoh
            garylkoh commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes - the neutral leg is bonded to ground potential, and the live leg swings from an EMP of 0V to 120V in a sinusoidal wave. Hence, while both are a potential of volts to each other, one is bonded to ground. This is a single-ended circuit as opposed to a balanced circuit where one swings between +60V and -60V and the other also swings between +60V and -60V but at 180 degrees phase difference.

            Noise is super-imposed on this sinusoidal wave and alsp the neutral leg depending on how far the neutral is bonded to ground.

            My power cord uses a lower DC impedance ground wire than the Live, and the ground wire is capacitatively coupled to the neutral wire. Ground wire shield doesn't make sense as the shield is grounded anyway. The Live wire is shielded.

        • #20
          Sorry for late reply and yes if anyone cord make a cord better you have gary. And this is why anyone who uses yours praises them.
          In my room I have a ISO that is 208 single phase in and dual secondary windings of 5 k each 120 volts. I tried it each one alone and parallel
          no onsevations of sound changes. What did make audible changes was removing the house ground completely and ten gauge for circuits and 6 gauge for ground Ina starr configuration.
          It may not be code compliant but it is dead silent and yielded better sound
          I measured D.C. Offset at one point and made a trap to reduce it. That did not make any changes in sound I could hear. It's removed now. By me removing the bonding of ground plane and neutral I truly have two potential poles I guess. Anyway if you could find a way to yield code compliency and ISO the ground enough to yield improeved sound 🔊 this might improve things even more for most.
          Gary i follow your theory and in no way assume it's wrong
          we are both almost saying the same thing in an way. But as I removed my bond is where we clearly depart

          I don't get why someone would spend big bucks on a room with a audio grade ISO and not try it removed from the house ground potential to hear of improvements.
          The leakage in mine is on the order of mili amps
          mostly due to my tubed lampi and woofer tower amps
          as I have measured each separately. The Msb leaks almost nothing. I even put a recorder I own and monitored it for a few days for a few parameters.
          Night yields much more noise then days.
          Have you tried a dinali by shunyata ? It nothing for me but it did for two others but neither had separate cicuuts installed from panel

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          • garylkoh
            garylkoh commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes - and I do agree with you that removing ground completely makes greatly improved sound. You did that with your power - but in my case it was done in the designs of my amps. Fully differential balanced circuits with floating signal ground.

        • #21
          Now that again proves you are above most in Audio. So now why the hell don't more do this. Makes me carzy

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          • #22
            I was always a huge skeptic when it came to power products, especially cables. I have now spent close to 10K on power products and consider them a mandatory part of a high end system. I first needed to understand what powerline noise did to the sound (if anything), what the sources of the noise were, and if they REALLY could be effectively addressed. I started reading up and came to the conclusion that the current that enters my speakers, by way of the speaker cables, originated from the ac in the wall. Therefore it seemed logical that any noise piggybacking on that electrical signal would cause distortion directly at the speakers possibly affecting the sound. I had recently purchased a Pass Alephono and it didn't come with a power cable, I purchased a Shunyata Venom with free return. I compared it to a generic 14/16 guage I had at home, good build. The Shunyata was way quieter to the point I was listening at a 2-3 hour lower volume position with the same volume and spl on iphone app. I did feel the new fancy cable brought some negatives such as it is slightly less involving, which is a deal breaker for me. I played around for a while and came to the above conclusions.

            I could more clearly understand how a conditioner affected sound compared to a power cable, thus I set out to research the products out there. I ended up getting RSA Dmitri with the stock generic 20 amp cable, which I was advised was silliness. I was very pleasantly surprised by the effect, bass was deeper to the point I need to adjust items in the room as they were now vibrating and resonating. The noise floor was markedly reduced, and I was experiencing improvements across the board. The conditioner is performing three main tasks in my estimation, first they filter the signal to provide a clean as possible 50/60HZ sine wave for the audio components, then they must keep the noise that returns to the conditioner from contaminating the other outlets. Finally it must be able to support steady and peak current draws.

            The power conditioner became an important part of the system and certainly revealed some weakness in source material and some connected equipment. I decided to upgrade to a better cable for the conditioner and again had surprising musical gains. I switched back and forth many times, I wanted to be sure of what was happening. It soon became obvious that the cable was making a big contribution to the system. I feel the cable improves the sound for several reasons; good construction with solid connectors to minimize noise introduction and release, enough metal to effectively conduct the current required, as well as a strong "shielding" design. The latter is where I feel some real differences may be had. I put it in parenthesis because I am referring to both the rejection of outside RFI and other noise from entering into the cable and distorting the signal however slightly(aren't we all .01g tracking force people?), as well as the ability to prevent the noise produced by the component it is powering from entering the circuit of the power conditioner and then back into other components. I have found many differences between different power cables, most seem lateral moves with different advantages and downsides, but some have proven truly special after 4-5 years now. I highly recommend you borrow a cable and try it out. The differences are readily apparent, just a matter of finding what works for you.

            YMMV

            Jeff

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            • #23
              There are few ways to address what's wrong in power.
              Before or inside our devices.
              While before is what we most have to do. Inside is what most should be.
              What gary of gensis quoted is so true and what makers should be doing. And Before you say it's costly it's not considering how much we pay for hi end devices.
              What we need is science behind a psu that can address noise and it seems gensis is one who has.

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