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AnalogMagik Is this the new HOLY GRAIL for TT setup ?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by tima View Post

    The Mint is okay; it has a lot of people using it. Of its type, I like the Wally Tractor a little more because it has a a very finely grooved arc into which the stylus fits. I know more assuredly when the stylus is on the mark in the arc. Both are better than the Fieckert (sp?), although that does have useable P2S measurement.

    The only thing better than the Smarttractot is the UNIpro, after which the former was modeled. Both are from Deitrich Brakemier. Their advantage is greater universality, single point alignment, parallax (sp?) View, P2S, magnification and they are not single use. Of course they are more money.

    The Mint is good enough; the Smartractor is better.
    Ok on this point alone leads me to this question. After careful setting of the spindle to pivot distance using the Smarttractor, Fiekert, Mint, or any others, I observed while using my USB Microscope that while changing the SRA I am also changing the spindle to pivot distance. I can see the stylus moving either towards or away from the pivot, is this not correct?
    Also if correct then it seems to me that all the fuss is almost a moot point?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Walnut Horns View Post
      Hello Everyone,


      Anyway, I have a question for Richard regarding the efficacy of the AnalogMagik with regard to setting up an SPU on an Ortofon 309D. What has been your experience with SPUs and the AnalogMagik?

      Additionally, and this is for the group, I'm seeking suggestions for identifying the pivot point on the Ortofon 309D for purposes of setting pivot to spindle distance. Unfortunately, there's no dimple on top of the pivot (legislation should be passed requiring this) and the provided template isn't particularly useful.

      I look forward to engaging in constructive discourse with everyone on this and other topics.

      Regards,

      Evan


      Hi Evan,

      I'll be honest with you, things will be a little difficult with SPU as well as RS309D. I thought about removing the 309D to identify the center of the pivot column on the template, but then again this doesn't guarantee the pivot is centered along the column itself. But you can certainly identify the center point on the armboard using the template, affix the PtoS and then go from there.

      This is a very common phenomenon, you encounter this with the Ikeda tonearm, or the SME 3009/3012.

      With all SPU, I believe the geometry is alightly off. Also you can forget azimuth, and Antiskating (not necessary as it is heavy enough). My program measures incremental changes, and if there are external factors which prevents it, or to prevent you from making adjustments, then there's nothing I can do as the problem is not from the program, nor the SMARTractor.

      The SPU cartridges, at least on the ones which I have measured, are not the most responsive to minute changes.

      Richard Mak

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by jcmusic View Post

        Ok on this point alone leads me to this question. After careful setting of the spindle to pivot distance using the Smarttractor, Fiekert, Mint, or any others, I observed while using my USB Microscope that while changing the SRA I am also changing the spindle to pivot distance. I can see the stylus moving either towards or away from the pivot, is this not correct?
        Also if correct then it seems to me that all the fuss is almost a moot point?
        If you change the SRA big enough yes it will move it away from the null point, which is why it is a time consuming process. You go back to change the position of the cartridge on the headshell, and redo alignment so that it lands on the null point again. Not only that, changing SRA by that much will also affect other parameters so you go back and you recheck / re-optimize every other parameter. Sometimes it is a 5-6 hour process.

        Pre-occupation with targeting 92 degree is GOOD, it is definitely a good starting point, but it relies on the assumption that 92 degree gives you the lowest possible IMD% distortion. What we assumed to be 92 degree in a static position will immediately be off slightly under 33 rpm, and more so under 45 rpm. You cannot avoid it, it is physics. And you cannot optically gauge 92 degree when it is in motion. All the fuss also assumes the record thickness remains constant. In my Test LPs, that would be 180G records.

        If lowest IMD% is what you are after when setting VTA/SRA, why not just measure it ? if you can find a correlation using my program's IMD% measurement function, it will give you the SRA which yields the lowest IMD%. This is not possible with all cases when there are external factors interfering the signal. such as vibrations, etc.

        Richard Mak



        Last edited by Stereopal; 02-25-2018, 04:45 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by jcmusic View Post

          Ok on this point alone leads me to this question. After careful setting of the spindle to pivot distance using the Smarttractor, Fiekert, Mint, or any others, I observed while using my USB Microscope that while changing the SRA I am also changing the spindle to pivot distance. I can see the stylus moving either towards or away from the pivot, is this not correct?
          Also if correct then it seems to me that all the fuss is almost a moot point?

          Not quite. I think some of your question brings up terminology issues.

          Let's start here, (with thanks to Wally for this tidy diagram):

          Click image for larger version  Name:	ToneArm Basic Geometry 1.jpg Views:	1 Size:	43.8 KB ID:	80731

          - once set, Pivot-to-Spindle (P2S) does not change - it should not change when dialing in a cartridge alignment. It is a fixed dimension provided by the tonearm manufacturer and having it as correct as possible is a necessary condition for all other measurements. Ergo, all the fuss is not a moot point. Unless the Mint tool or WallyTractor is substantially different now, it is only a protractor you cannot set P2S using it.

          When you see the stylus tip move fore and aft as you adjust its alignment relative to the null point specified by the protractor, or when its position changes because VTF (Vertical Tracking Force) changes, what is changing is stylus overhang, or the arc defined by the stylus' path through the two null points specified for the chosen alignment curve (Baerwald, Loefgren B, etc.)

          The relationship between stylus tip location, VTA/SRA and VTF is dynamic. That is why there is iteration across these values as referenced in Richard's step through checklist. And some of the reason why doing this is such a pita.

          Originally posted by STEREOPAL
          ... This is what I usually do:

          1) Set VTF to approx. factory recommended range
          2) Pivot to Spindle.
          3) Set Azimuth to completely flat level, set Antiskating to ZERO
          4) Set VTA via arm at 15 degree or microscope at 92 degree SRA.
          5) Perform alignment, perform dynamic alignment w/ landing behavior using SMARTractor or Uni-Tractor.
          6) Check Speed / W&F
          7) Azimuth
          8) Anti-skate
          9) VTA
          10) VTF
          12) GAIN / LOADING
          13) Repeat Azimuth, Antiskate, VTA/VTF (This takes a long time).
          14) Set Headshell Screw to approx. 0.65 Inch Lbs. (Pay attention ! this is not NM or whatever, it is Inch Lbs.). ...
          Spkr: Wilson Alexias series 2; Amps: Lamm M1.2Ref; Linestage and phono: ARC Ref 10 and ARC Ref 10 Phono; TT: GPA Monaco 2.0; Arms: Kuzma 4Point, Tri-planar Mk. VII U2-SE; Cartridges: Allnic Arrow/Puritas, Benz LP S, Fuuga, Lyra Etna, Transfiguration Phoenix, Denon DL-A100,DL103R; Cables: Shunyata Σ / Σ NR PC/SC/IC; Pwr Cond: Shunyata Triton III, Typhons(3); Isolation: SRA Scuttle3 rack, SRA Ohio Class amp stands, ; Acoustics: Stillpoints Apertures; Audio cat: Finzi

          Comment


          • Barry
            Barry commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for sharing this and your process. Reminds me there's something I need to double check on my set-up!

        • #50
          Rich, thanks for your response. I suspected the tool may be of limited use for an SPU. Why do you think the Ortofon arm has incorrect geometry and what arms do you recommend for SPUs that are easy to setup and respond well to the AnalogMagik? Thanks again.

          Comment


          • #51
            Originally posted by tima View Post


            Not quite. I think some of your question brings up terminology issues.

            Let's start here, (with thanks to Wally for this tidy diagram):

            Click image for larger version Name:	ToneArm Basic Geometry 1.jpg Views:	1 Size:	43.8 KB ID:	80731

            - once set, Pivot-to-Spindle (P2S) does not change - it should not change when dialing in a cartridge alignment. It is a fixed dimension provided by the tonearm manufacturer and having it as correct as possible is a necessary condition for all other measurements. Ergo, all the fuss is not a moot point. Unless the Mint tool or WallyTractor is substantially different now, it is only a protractor you cannot set P2S using it.

            When you see the stylus tip move fore and aft as you adjust its alignment relative to the null point specified by the protractor, or when its position changes because VTF (Vertical Tracking Force) changes, what is changing is stylus overhang, or the arc defined by the stylus' path through the two null points specified for the chosen alignment curve (Baerwald, Loefgren B, etc.)

            The relationship between stylus tip location, VTA/SRA and VTF is dynamic. That is why there is iteration across these values as referenced in Richard's step through checklist. And some of the reason why doing this is such a pita.


            Tima,
            Sorry you are correct I used the wrong wording, I meant the effective length or stylus overhang changes as you change the VTA/SRA.

            Comment


            • tima
              tima commented
              Editing a comment
              No worries. It can be confusing - at least it was for me until I made myself learn the terminology and think about manuvering an object in 3D space. At least the carridge is fixed to the tonearm, othrwise we'd all be pilots or astrophysicists. :->

          • #52
            Originally posted by Walnut Horns View Post
            Rich, thanks for your response. I suspected the tool may be of limited use for an SPU. Why do you think the Ortofon arm has incorrect geometry and what arms do you recommend for SPUs that are easy to setup and respond well to the AnalogMagik? Thanks again.
            Hi Evan

            The Ortofon Arm has a correct geometry, if you use a headshell which allows the cartridge to be moved. This will allow you to land on Baerwald, Lofgren or Uni geometry. With SPU, the effective length is fixed, and you'll have to adjust P to S, according to their recommendation in order to achieve "their geometry". So it is not a wrong geometry per se:

            https://www.ortofon.com/media/15220/...s_tonearms.pdf

            It is really hard to say which cartridge or tonearm / turntable combo will respond well to changes. My program measures incremental changes above a baseline, that baseline is beyond my control. Say on VTA for instance, the incremental changes usually falls within the range of 0.2% to 0.5%. If the baseline is 1% IMD%, then you are measruring a change which is 30-50% of the baseline which makes it relatively easy to establish a correlation.

            But anytime when you have a baseline reading of above 5% IMD% to being with, and you are trying to measure a 0.2-0.5% change, this only is 5-10% deviation from the baseline, this is more difficult to do for the program as well as for the ear. A slightly warped record will produce a big jump in IMD% changes despite our filtering and averaging efforts.

            And with a non-adjustable Azimuth, you are basically taking away another important factor which has quite an impact on SRA angle.

            Richard Mak


            Comment


            • #53
              And now we know why people listen to digital music!

              This takes a lot of patience even if you have the right tools. In the end it is worth it, but you really need to set aside a lot of time to get it right, or even close enough.
              Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio V3 Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS; Durand Telos and SME 3012R Tonearms, Lyra Etna SL, Ortofon Anna, Benz Micro LPS; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Studer A810; Tascam BR-20; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Big 7 DAC

              Comment


              • tima
                tima commented
                Editing a comment
                Vinyl - its a lifestyle choice but its not about convenience.

              • DetroitVinylRob
                DetroitVinylRob commented
                Editing a comment
                Time, yes, and an extreme amount of patience...

            • #54


              Bing Tsai is a respected reviewer in Taiwan, and an expert in analog measurements using distortion analyzers. He is one of my earliest users in Asia. Seems like he's very happy with my VTA function:

              http://bingrungtsai.blogspot.tw/2018...-function.html

              Comment


              • #55
                There are tonearms (Triplanar, Kuzma 4Point...) with damping options. Is there a way to optimize vertical and (or) horizontal damping with your program?
                Source: Kuzma XL DC, Kuzma 4Point 14 inch, Benz Micro LP-S MR; Phono: Zanden 1200 Mk3; Tuner: Magnum Dynalab MD-108T Signature; Line Stage: Zanden 3000 Mk2 (ordered); Power amp: conrad-johnson ART; Speakers: Avalon ; Grounding: Tripoint & Thor SE; Cable system: Cardas Clear & Clear Beyond; Stands: Finite Elemente Master Reference & Master Reference Heavy Duty; Acoustics treatment: Svanå Miljöteknik AB (SMT);

                Comment


                • #56
                  Can anyone offer how the software functions, their findings after using the software? How does it compare to your original setup routine to the level of sonic performance you were able to achieve vs using the software?

                  Comment


                  • #57
                    Bump on Chris' question. Any feedback from users? I setup my VPI Prime using the Mint tractor and Adjust+ for azimuth. VTA/SRA simply done using the 'headshell level to platter' method. Sounds fantastic, especially after locking in azimuth with Adjust+. Wondering, of course, if I can squeeze more out though!

                    Comment


                    • chris h
                      chris h commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I am going to Axpona show where Rutherford Audio will be demoing the software. I hope to hear a before and after software calibration where all the mechanical tools of setup as recommended by Richard have been implemented leaving only the software to complete the setup. Stay tuned :-))

                  • #58
                    Looking forward to hearing your report, thanks Chris.

                    Comment


                    • #59
                      For those of you using the AnalogMagik software, have you purchased a separate laptop for this purpose as recommended by AnalogMagik, or are you using an existing laptop with success? Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • MylesBAstor
                        MylesBAstor commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I am buying a separate computer. You can buy the Lenovo recommended by Richard for $179 at Best Buy.

                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Walnut Horns View Post
                      For those of you using the AnalogMagik software, have you purchased a separate laptop for this purpose as recommended by AnalogMagik, or are you using an existing laptop with success? Thanks.
                      I'm using my existing HP laptop. Although, it is just a surfing machine, I use a Microsoft surface for my day job. The existing laptop works just fine.

                      My dealer down the road uses a the recommended lennovo. Makes sense for him, as he needs something portable and dedicated for repeat use.

                      http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum...p?f=20&t=49285


                      He's done many set ups thus far. I am having good results with mine and after a small learning curve it is working well .


                      Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
                      Brinkmann La Grange & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point , Brinkmann 12.1 , Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
                      Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
                      Pre-Amps: ARC SP 3a, Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
                      Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2

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