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  • Liquid lp cleaning critics

    What are your thoughts? I have not been using wet clean as frequently as I used to, but occasionally go on binges.

    http://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/03...io+Magazine%29
    Avalon Time, Walker Proscenium, Koetsu Coralstone, Air Tight PC-1 Supreme, Goldfinger Statement, Dalby record weight, Kondo KSL-SFz step-up, Jadis JP80-MC...heavily modified, Convergent Audio JL-2 Black Path, Sony NS999 ES Modwright modded, full loom High Fidelity Ultimate cables, Rel S-5 sub, Stillpoints ultra and 5's, Shun Mook, Dalby footers, Critical Mass bases, Acoustic System Resonators, Magnum Dynalab Etude, Telefunkens throughout, assorted fuses, Furutech outlets, PurePower conditioner.

  • #2
    my cleaning fluid of choice is quite innocuous, just don't wet clean the same record over and over (just once for me) and you'll be fine.
    TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

    Comment


    • #3
      First, a spell check would be useful.

      Second garbage. In theory, salt could kill you. I covered this all when I wrote my original RCF article back in '90s. Concentrations, type of alcohol, duration of exposure all enter into the equation. A couple of mins will not harm an LP. No one has ever reported, and RCFs have been used decades, any issues. Don't get me started on what I think about this site.

      Now it's a different story when we are talking about shellac, 78 rpm discs.
      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
      ________________________________________

      -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
      -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
      -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

      Comment


      • #4
        After two page views and scant information (other than the molecular structure of PVC) the site's obnoxious character exceeded my willingness to go on.

        Comment


        • #5
          That article is a great example of how little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The presence of halogen in the molecular structure makes the PVC molecule much more stable than the usual olefin plastics. Also, stabilizers are only needed in PVC when it is heated to beyond 180 deg C (such as during pressing for example). Modern presses are careful to not exceed this temperature and require little if any stabilizers.

          I lived in Singapore for 40 years and had a record collection for most of those years - I've never had a problem with a growing fungal colony.
          Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer
          Genesis Advanced Technologies, Inc.
          www.genesisloudspeakers.com

          Comment


          • #6
            One thing that I have become acutely conscious of in the last few years is the potential effect of cleaning fluid residue -- if not fully removed from a record--interacting with the plastic aftermarket inner liners. A lot of the complaints about PVC leaching seem to center on those old fashioned, heavy duty plastic outer jackets, of the type libraries used to use for LPs-- those have a fair amount of plasticizer in them to keep them compliant. That stuff can be deadly, but is rarely used these days (though Simply Vinyl, if I recall, brought them back into vogue when they were in business). Otherwise, and perhaps I'm just a paranoid because I've actually seen very little to no evidence of this in wet cleaning/vac drying records and resleeving them in aftermarket sleeves since the '80s, is the potential for a chemical interaction between the aftermarket inner sleeve material and cleaning fluid residue that has not been effectively removed in the cleaning process. One way to be sure is to do a "pure water" rinse and vac step. I do this anyway, for sonic reasons as well, but my main concern-- about conservation of records--is easily remedied by that simple step-- a rinse. I suspect most commercial purpose made record cleaning fluids are close to 99% water anyway-- very little in them that is volatile. In the old days, alcohol was commonly mixed into cleaning fluids--I was told that Monks originally used vodka. As Myles points out, it is rare that this stuff is left on the record for any length of time anyway, but I never found that alcohol was a particularly good solvent- maybe it worked for some contaminants, but I suspect it was added to enhance evaporation (or perhaps as a surfactant).

            Comment


            • #7
              I use my VPI 16.5 on every LP I play unless the woman in the German humidity house is out and hard up on the rock. If the humidity in my house drops too low in the winter, too much static will buildup during the cleaning and vacuuming process. My LPs look like new and I have never had a leaching problem with LP sleeves and I use mainly the VPI sleeves.
              Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, wet cleaning hasn't seemed to had any negative impact on any vinyl in my collection including some 60+ years old.

                Wet cleaning using the appropriate fluid hasn't harmed any 78s either.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by garylkoh View Post
                  That article is a great example of how little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The presence of halogen in the molecular structure makes the PVC molecule much more stable than the usual olefin plastics. Also, stabilizers are only needed in PVC when it is heated to beyond 180 deg C (such as during pressing for example). Modern presses are careful to not exceed this temperature and require little if any stabilizers.

                  I lived in Singapore for 40 years and had a record collection for most of those years - I've never had a problem with a growing fungal colony.
                  I think the perceived issue is with the plasticizers that keep the record (or plastics) malleable. Leaching of plasticizers out of the plastic in some cases is measureable. Take the case of phthalate esters/plasticizers used in blood storage bags. Blood doping was/is a huge issue in cycling and was undetectable until someone came up with a brilliant idea. Testing for the infused blood is impossible so instead the people in charge of testing for blood doping tested for the presence of the plasticizer used in the blood storage bags in the cyclists' bloodstream.

                  But again the conditions used for cleaning records is unlikely to cause loss of plasticizers. And this could be looked at by anyone who is a chemist.

                  I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
                  Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                  Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                  ________________________________________

                  -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                  -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                  -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                  -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                  -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                  -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                  -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                  -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                  -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                  -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
                    One thing that I have become acutely conscious of in the last few years is the potential effect of cleaning fluid residue -- if not fully removed from a record--interacting with the plastic aftermarket inner liners. A lot of the complaints about PVC leaching seem to center on those old fashioned, heavy duty plastic outer jackets, of the type libraries used to use for LPs-- those have a fair amount of plasticizer in them to keep them compliant. That stuff can be deadly, but is rarely used these days (though Simply Vinyl, if I recall, brought them back into vogue when they were in business). Otherwise, and perhaps I'm just a paranoid because I've actually seen very little to no evidence of this in wet cleaning/vac drying records and resleeving them in aftermarket sleeves since the '80s, is the potential for a chemical interaction between the aftermarket inner sleeve material and cleaning fluid residue that has not been effectively removed in the cleaning process. One way to be sure is to do a "pure water" rinse and vac step. I do this anyway, for sonic reasons as well, but my main concern-- about conservation of records--is easily remedied by that simple step-- a rinse. I suspect most commercial purpose made record cleaning fluids are close to 99% water anyway-- very little in them that is volatile. In the old days, alcohol was commonly mixed into cleaning fluids--I was told that Monks originally used vodka. As Myles points out, it is rare that this stuff is left on the record for any length of time anyway, but I never found that alcohol was a particularly good solvent- maybe it worked for some contaminants, but I suspect it was added to enhance evaporation (or perhaps as a surfactant).
                    Is this residue simply a case of the record not being thoroughly vacuumed and dried-- eg. Fluid droplets on the surface -- before being reinserted into the inner sleeve?
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      we've spoken off line and my regimen and his kinda arrived at the same point, Bill can elaborate on his separately. The only cleaning fluid other than pure H20 that touches my vinyl happens at the beginning with a pre scrub (it involves baby bottle warmers, among other aparati) it then goes into the ultra sonic with distilled H20 (also at an elevated temperature) either drip dry or still wet goes back on a vacuum RCM (Loricraft in my case) the record surface is re-hydrated with distilled H20 then vac dried. the object is to reintroduce pure H20 in the last few steps to release any residual impurities up to the very end of the cleaning process.
                      TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

                      "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree with him about the mold etching the vinyl...that mottled grey-ish splotchy stuff. It can also be simple oxidation on the vinyl due to impurities in the vinyl puck for a given pressing. This etching can sound in the form of light, moderate or heavy record surface crackle and or whispy sounds every revolution. I have experienced this frequently with RCA, Mercury and Decca original classical pressings.
                        Christian
                        System Gear

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                          Is this residue simply a case of the record not being thoroughly vacuumed and dried-- eg. Fluid droplets on the surface -- before being reinserted into the inner sleeve?
                          Myles- I guess it could be both. The author mentions putting a wet record back into the sleeve. What I was raising was a little different, as you noted. The residue could be dry from a bad cleaning vacuuming job--ever see records that had been "cleaned" with "water spots" in the deadwax? That could be water, cleaning fluid or something else (beer)? Who knows?
                          My concern is admittedly theoretical because I've seen very little evidence of it in practice- that this chemical residue might interact with some types of inner sleeve, including some of the plastic aftermarket inners. To answer your specific question, the residue could be left even after a vacuum-- as I think you have observed, vacuuming gets more difficult when you are down to the last of the liquid; dry doesn't necessarily mean free of the fluid (and the contaminants suspended in the fluid). Thus, the rinse step, in an effort to displace whatever fluid residue remains with a water step.
                          There are various theories on plastics instability, from the old heavy pliant PVC outers which leach, to a combination of PVC inners and heat (storing in hot environments). I don't know what the causes are aside from the obvious- that plastic that off-gasses, like the stuff used for car dashboards that causes a film on the windshield. (I think California now requires that car manufacturers prove limited off gassing of interior materials for health reasons). For records, I think as much can be caused by bad storage and bad cleaning as any inherent instability in the plastic itself--and I'd put the effect of record cleaning fluid pretty low on the list, other than the theoretical possibility I noted- of fluid residue interacting with an inner sleeve, perhaps aggravated by heat.
                          That etching effect Christian mentioned could be caused by various things. The cloudy haze left by plasticizer leaching is noticeable on the surface of the record and does cause noise. Mold, as in some sort of active fungal growth, is really scary. I guess you can kill it using very strong chemical that would not be good for records-- I haven't tried Sporicidin, which supposedly works and doesn't harm records-- but I'm never confident that the stuff is truly dead, so a moldy record gets tossed. I would consider a record suffering from mold to be outside the norm--perhaps a result of records kept in a damp basement or exposed to flooding-- but that's a different thing than plastic instability exacerbated by cleaning.

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                          • Guest's Avatar
                            Guest commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Does bleach harm records?

                          • Bill Hart
                            Bill Hart commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Tima- bleach is pretty nasty, not sure I'd use it on a vinyl LP. It is an old school "mold killer" but from what I gather, it's not really great for that either. Plus, it is pretty ugly stuff to work with. Why? Have you tried it or thought of using it to remediate mold?

                          • Guest's Avatar
                            Guest commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I've not tried bleach - going on the theory "what's good for your bathroom tile is good for your records", your post made me think of it. Yeah better to wear rubber gloves and old clothes. I don't really have issues with mold - not since the great Water Disaster of 20 years ago - but it would be worth investigating on a throwaway record. Need to keep it off the label. As you intimate, just handling the stuff with a record is a liability. I'll speculate with no evidence that it won't harm the PVC.

                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post

                          Myles- I guess it could be both. The author mentions putting a wet record back into the sleeve. What I was raising was a little different, as you noted. The residue could be dry from a bad cleaning vacuuming job--ever see records that had been "cleaned" with "water spots" in the deadwax? That could be water, cleaning fluid or something else (beer)? Who knows?
                          My concern is admittedly theoretical because I've seen very little evidence of it in practice- that this chemical residue might interact with some types of inner sleeve, including some of the plastic aftermarket inners. To answer your specific question, the residue could be left even after a vacuum-- as I think you have observed, vacuuming gets more difficult when you are down to the last of the liquid; dry doesn't necessarily mean free of the fluid (and the contaminants suspended in the fluid). Thus, the rinse step, in an effort to displace whatever fluid residue remains with a water step.
                          There are various theories on plastics instability, from the old heavy pliant PVC outers which leach, to a combination of PVC inners and heat (storing in hot environments). I don't know what the causes are aside from the obvious- that plastic that off-gasses, like the stuff used for car dashboards that causes a film on the windshield. (I think California now requires that car manufacturers prove limited off gassing of interior materials for health reasons). For records, I think as much can be caused by bad storage and bad cleaning as any inherent instability in the plastic itself--and I'd put the effect of record cleaning fluid pretty low on the list, other than the theoretical possibility I noted- of fluid residue interacting with an inner sleeve, perhaps aggravated by heat.
                          That etching effect Christian mentioned could be caused by various things. The cloudy haze left by plasticizer leaching is noticeable on the surface of the record and does cause noise. Mold, as in some sort of active fungal growth, is really scary. I guess you can kill it using very strong chemical that would not be good for records-- I haven't tried Sporicidin, which supposedly works and doesn't harm records-- but I'm never confident that the stuff is truly dead, so a moldy record gets tossed. I would consider a record suffering from mold to be outside the norm--perhaps a result of records kept in a damp basement or exposed to flooding-- but that's a different thing than plastic instability exacerbated by cleaning.
                          Sonicaction should kill mold.

                          Those old plastic inner sleeve used to real plasticizer on the record surface. Not getting it off either.

                          I was thinking of the old Discwasher record cleaning system. Were people playing a wet record? Seems to me never was completely dry despite just adding a few drops to the brush. And then add a few more and a few more with each record and soon brush is wet.

                          Just for interest, found this new ode to Discwasher.


                          The GrooveWasher StoryMy love for music and records began when I was 6 or 7, growing up in Southern California. My dad had a component stereo system. He collect
                          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                          ________________________________________

                          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                          -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                            Sonicaction should kill mold.

                            Those old plastic inner sleeve used to real plasticizer on the record surface. Not getting it off either.

                            I was thinking of the old Discwasher record cleaning system. Were people playing a wet record? Seems to me never was completely dry despite just adding a few drops to the brush. And then add a few more and a few more with each record and soon brush is wet.

                            Just for interest, found this new ode to Discwasher.

                            Referencing "Sonicaction" I'm guessing you mean ultrasonic action? I didn't find it as a product, but only looked through three pages of search results.

                            But it's certainly not just for jewelry and vinyl: http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...s/default.aspx

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