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Questions re Wiring Directly from FM Head to King Cello Preamp

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  • Questions re Wiring Directly from FM Head to King Cello Preamp

    Hi all,

    I know this has been discussed here and on WBF, but just wanted to get people's view's before I push the button. So, I have bought a Tascam 42, which is getting a Flux Magnetic Extended Response head. I wish to circumvent the internal amplification, so I am having the it wired directly from the head to go into a King-Cello preamp.

    The questions I have are as follows:

    Is it really necessary to have the wiring be outside the deck? Has anyone had the wire running through the deck and not had a problem? I really don't like the wire on the outside because on the Tascam it will be very trick to thread the tape around and I am also worried about it getting torn off. This assumes the wire will be a good shielded cable - e.g. Transparent or Cardas and will be properly grounded


    Is it a problem if the wire is longer than a meter - say about 4' or so. If I wire it through the machine that will probably add about a foot and then I need about 3 - 4'. With the King Cello preamp I can have the preamp near the deck, but if at some point in the future Herve Deletraz puts in a tape preamp into his line stage, I might want to try that, and I would therefore need a longer cable. Has anyone tried longer cables and not had problems? any suggestions? Thanks

  • #2
    it seems to me that you wouldn't want to run the cable inside the deck. That's because the signal is small and inside the deck there are all sorts of possible noise sources like relays, transformers, motors, solenoids, etc that could bleed into the audio signal. As far as cable length goes shorter is better but I don't think three or four feet is too long for the job. NOTE : I am just speculating, I have never wired a tape head externally or internally. My deck uses the stock electronics for record and playback.
    Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cohnaudio View Post
      Hi all,

      I know this has been discussed here and on WBF, but just wanted to get people's view's before I push the button. So, I have bought a Tascam 42, which is getting a Flux Magnetic Extended Response head. I wish to circumvent the internal amplification, so I am having the it wired directly from the head to go into a King-Cello preamp.

      The questions I have are as follows:

      Is it really necessary to have the wiring be outside the deck? Has anyone had the wire running through the deck and not had a problem? I really don't like the wire on the outside because on the Tascam it will be very trick to thread the tape around and I am also worried about it getting torn off. This assumes the wire will be a good shielded cable - e.g. Transparent or Cardas and will be properly grounded


      Is it a problem if the wire is longer than a meter - say about 4' or so. If I wire it through the machine that will probably add about a foot and then I need about 3 - 4'. With the King Cello preamp I can have the preamp near the deck, but if at some point in the future Herve Deletraz puts in a tape preamp into his line stage, I might want to try that, and I would therefore need a longer cable. Has anyone tried longer cables and not had problems? any suggestions? Thanks
      Hi Richard! Glad to have you aboard!

      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
      ________________________________________

      -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
      -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
      -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

      Comment


      • #4
        I have both of my decks wired internally, Studer and Otari very short wire runs about 18" maybe less. If a quality wire is used it should not be an issue, I have no noise or other problems with mine. I did at one time have a slight hum I just moved the wire until it was gone easy enough...

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks. So is the concern re short wire that the impedence increases too much for the preamp (if so, what is the max length/impedence for the KC preamp) or is it the increased possibility of picking up RFI and hum?

          Comment


          • MylesBAstor
            MylesBAstor commented
            Editing a comment
            It has nothing to do with the tape stage but the electrical characteristics of the heads and wires. Too high an impedance and the frequency extremes suffer.

            Nor RFI. That is wire shielding and route through the machine. The issue is that the wire can come to close to sources like the tape machine's motors that can easily generate hum.

        • #6
          You want to use a high quality shielded wire as to reduce the possibility of picking up RFI and hum...

          Comment


          • #7
            Richard and I had this discussion.

            The issue is the length of the cable and as discussed above hum. The latter is addressable but not so sure about the former . Normally, the electronics are located inside the tape deck when the cable is routed out the back. Then you can take the output of the tape directly to the RCAs and then use an IC to connect the tape machine to the preamplifier. But if you route the wire from the headblock through the machine, you either have to connect it to RCAs and then use an IC or route the wire all the way out the back of the machine to the electronics (or eventually Dart pre as Richard hopes). And one could argue that the wire out the back is as prone to damage as when it goes out the front. If you look at the picture of the new 1506 in the Doshi thread, you can see Nick has supported the wire with some velcro fasteners. Not routing the wire horizontally does make threading a little harder but perhaps you can route it vertically and also secure the wire so it can't be torn off.

            Otherwise, the issue then becomes the length of the wire from the headblock and the head impedance. The lower the head impedance, the longer the wire that can be used. But still the shorter the better.
            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
            -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
            -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

            Comment


            • #8
              In both of my decks the wires are inside the decks, and run to RCA connectors in the rear of the machine. From there I use IC to the tape pre's.

              Comment


              • #9
                what is the signal level coming off the tape head? MC? MM? LINE?
                Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

                Comment


                • #10
                  Thanks guys,

                  I think what I am goin to do is have the preamp sent to the tech, so he can check for hum when installing the wire. We will try initially to have it inside th deck if that does not pick up noise. We will try to keep the cable length to no longer than 4'. I will report back hear to let you know how it goes

                  Comment


                  • MylesBAstor
                    MylesBAstor commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That sounds like the best move.

                • #11
                  You might want to consider putting a switch near the headblock so that you can use either your external preamp or the deck's internal preamp.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Hi all,

                    I thought I owed you a follow-up. So despite some setbacks as a result of the guerillas at UPS, I now have my Tascam 42 with the Flux Magnetic extended head and wired out directly from the head with the Transparent cable going out the back of the machine and plugged into the King Cello preamp that I purchased from Myles. The cable was supposed to be terminated with the Furutech RCA jacks, but they didn't fit on the cable. So Josh at Transparent was kind enough to send me their jacks free of charge (those guys at Transparent are real stars. Their products are great and they really have great service). The cable is about 2 meters, runs through the deck and out the back and is dead silent. Not a bit of hum or noise. Thanks to the UPS guys, a couple of the connections to the head got disconnected, but thanks to the incredible diligence of Charlie King, we got it fixed. Charlie really is the Man. The sound? In one word, incredible. That preamp is so transparent and dynamic, it seems to me that I am hearing every ounce of what is on the tapes. It really works well with my Dart Preamp. I have the preamps plugged into the new Shunyata Denali 6000T power conditioner. (Which though skeptical at first, I'm now a believer). Anyway, I will be listening to tapes for the next few nights. Thanks to all that helped me here. Attached are a couple of pics of my set up

                    Comment


                    • Rob
                      Rob commented
                      Editing a comment
                      awesome and congrats on a nice set-up.

                    • astrotoy
                      astrotoy commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Very nice - now to get more tapes! Larry

                    • MylesBAstor
                      MylesBAstor commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Glad you are up and running Richard!!! Keep us updated!

                  • #13
                    Hello,
                    What type of Flux Extended response head do you have (8myH) ?
                    I have Tascam BR-20 and have retrofited it with Flux head (8myH) and now I have just inquired, that there is no tape preamp on the planet suitable for it.
                    More about it on bottlehead forum:
                    https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=11297.0
                    regards

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      It seems to me you will need to get another head with the correct impedance for it to work properly, I have a Flux head installed in my Otari and use it with the Dehavilland tape pre with no issues. I also used it with the Bottlehead tubed repro before I sold it, so it will work with the correct impedance. I also have a Tascam BR 20 that I have not wired for direct out yet but, probably will soon enough.

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        I read the thread over at Bottlehead. It seems like you should get a different head with higher inductance which would give you many options for an external tape preamp. Working with an 8 myH head is going to be difficult.
                        Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio V3 Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS; Durand Telos and SME 3012R Tonearms, Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement v2; Miyajima Zero; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Studer A810; Studer A812; Tascam BR-20; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Pacific

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