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Where vinyl beats analog tape

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  • Where vinyl beats analog tape

    While I have and enjoy many vintage classical reel tapes, they do have an Achilles heel, tape hiss. Vinyl has a better S/N ratio, at least with 7.5 ips tape with no noise reduction. I'm sure 15 ips 1/2 track is quieter, but is it truly as hiss free as the finest vinyl recordings made from 2" master tapes using pro noise reduction?
    Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (St) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (St) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (St) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (M) , Luxman Tonearm (M) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (M) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-300 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

  • #2
    Vinyl beats tape
    1. Records new or used are less money than tape
    2. Selection new and used is better with Vinyl
    3. Rock and Roll tapes new are as common as Unicorns

    Tape beats Vinyl
    1. better sound so they say
    2. A great tape machine is far cheaper than a great TT set up
    3. A big tape deck is more impressive than a TT

    For tape you had better like jazz which is 4 very talented musicians playing 5 different songs at the same time. Oh yeah you need to drink bourbon or scotch

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Garth View Post
      Vinyl beats tape
      1. Records new or used are less money than tape
      2. Selection new and used is better with Vinyl
      3. Rock and Roll tapes new are as common as Unicorns

      Tape beats Vinyl
      1. better sound so they say
      2. A great tape machine is far cheaper than a great TT set up
      3. A big tape deck is more impressive than a TT

      For tape you had better like jazz which is 4 very talented musicians playing 5 different songs at the same time. Oh yeah you need to drink bourbon or scotch
      if Tape beats Vinyl 1. Better sound, then whats with the tape hiss, and why do tapeless direct to disk LPs sound so much better than LPs cut from same session analog tapes?
      Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (St) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (St) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (St) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (M) , Luxman Tonearm (M) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (M) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-300 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

      Comment


      • #4
        I ssssssee your point but the guysssss with the big buckssss ssssay nothing ssssssoundsssss like tape. Maybe the highessss are gone in their hearing and they do not hear the hisssss. They may also have better deckssss .

        direct to disc do sound great but they are rare as well

        Comment


        • #5
          I hope you guys are just trying to have some fun at tape's expense. First, let's separate prerecorded high-speed duplicated 7 1/2 ips 4 track tapes from 15 ips 2 track tapes duped in real time. The former have lots of noise, the latter are very quiet. Vinyl has additional noise floors; you can hear the noise floor of the tape that made the recording plus the noise floor of the vinyl.

          D2D sound great because they are cut live with the musicians in the studio or recording venue playing in real time together and it cuts out one recording process on the way to the LP being pressed.

          2" master tapes were normally used to make 24 track recordings which never seemed to have the purity or the overall dynamic range of 2 track tape recordings made in the 1950s and early 1960s.
          Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

            if Tape beats Vinyl 1. Better sound, then whats with the tape hiss, and why do tapeless direct to disk LPs sound so much better than LPs cut from same session analog tapes?
            This is true, the s/n of 15 ips tape is right around 68-70 db, just below good TT playback. Vinyl also has a theoretical dynamic range above 120 db, far surpassing tape but none of this tells the whole story. And I agree, D2D sound pretty damn good, I posed a similar question on another site to recording/mastering experts re D2D vs 15 ips tape and I got crickets and tumble weed for a response.
            Simon Yorke S10 | My Sonic Lab Eminent GL | AcousticPlan PhonoMaster | Wadia X32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

            "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

            Comment


            • #7
              Me make fun of the tape heads never.
              You know you have a big tape collection when you need both hands to pick it up.
              New tapes are they released once a year in years ending in odd numbers or even numbers

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

                if Tape beats Vinyl 1. Better sound, then whats with the tape hiss, and why do tapeless direct to disk LPs sound so much better than LPs cut from same session analog tapes?
                Let me put it this way. Here's a quote from one of the people who attended my tape seminar at Paragon Sight and Sound late last year.

                "First up was Myles tape demo. The gear in that room was all Nick Doshi 3.0 including one of his tape stages handling the duty for the 15ips tape machine. Speakers were Wilson Alexia's. Myles began his demo with a Powerpoint presentation touching on the current state of tape in hi-end audio. He then played several tracks from various tapes. What surprised several of us was how quiet these tapes were, no tape hiss could be heard on the majority of the tracks he used. As one would expect the SQ from tape was exemplary. My issues are content, price and user issues. (track access, short playing time, pre and post listening handling issues) I am sure that for many here those are non-issues. Great job Myles. I came out of that demo smiling."

                Tape hiss was in part a function of the size of the magnetic particles used in the early stereo recordings. And if the hiss is on the tape, it's on LP too.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Most of us got into tapes to get as close to the original master tapes as possible. That was the premise of the Tape Project that started everything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

                    if Tape beats Vinyl 1. Better sound, then whats with the tape hiss, and why do tapeless direct to disk LPs sound so much better than LPs cut from same session analog tapes?
                    Well some believe that D2D has the best fidelity. But just because it's D2D, doesn't make the recording golden. You have to evaluate the release on a case by case basis because there are a just as many lousy as good D2D recordings. (see the thread on D2D.) For instance, the Sheffields in many cases, have issues too.

                    But D2D simply isn't realistic in today's world because of the lack of editing ability.

                    Now as far comparing D2D with LPs made with the session tapes is not always comparing apples with oranges. One, the LP is usually released years after the D2D. Two, you don't know what kind of care went into the mastering and production of the LP. Three, using the LP as a marker of sound is not really fair. You need to compare the session tape with the D2D recording. Otherwise, you are often talking another generation or two of tape also.

                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mep View Post
                      I hope you guys are just trying to have some fun at tape's expense. First, let's separate prerecorded high-speed duplicated 7 1/2 ips 4 track tapes from 15 ips 2 track tapes duped in real time. The former have lots of noise, the latter are very quiet. Vinyl has additional noise floors; you can hear the noise floor of the tape that made the recording plus the noise floor of the vinyl.

                      D2D sound great because they are cut live with the musicians in the studio or recording venue playing in real time together and it cuts out one recording process on the way to the LP being pressed.

                      2" master tapes were normally used to make 24 track recordings which never seemed to have the purity or the overall dynamic range of 2 track tape recordings made in the 1950s and early 1960s.
                      Just to reinforce what Mark said, there is zero, none, nada comparison between mass produced, high speed duped 71/2 ips two or four track, NAB EQ (especially the latter) and real time duped, one off, IEC EQ second or third generation 15 ips tapes. Just to begin with, there's a large difference in FR between the two formats.
                      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                      ________________________________________

                      -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                      -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                      -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Garth View Post
                        Me make fun of the tape heads never.
                        You know you have a big tape collection when you need both hands to pick it up.
                        New tapes are they released once a year in years ending in odd numbers or even numbers
                        Garth there are 22 companies now releasing 15 ips tape with over 200 titles available. And in two or three weeks, your comment will be a moot point.
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                        -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Essentially all vinyl released between around 1950 and 1980 were recorded on tape. So when you hear the vinyl you are hearing the master tape plus any artifacts from the multiple stages of pressing the vinyl, plus the wear and tear of playing the vinyl record, if it isn't brand new. Myles point about D2D recordings is spot on. The reason there are only a handful of them is that there is no editing and maximum sound levels cannot be exceeded. So the musicians tend to be pretty cautious in their playing, since any mistake or over exuberant playing will cause the lacquer to be ruined and the piece will have to begin again from the top.

                          One point about the old 7.5ips 4 track tapes - there is noticeable hiss on those tapes. Like groove noise and clicks and pops and surface noise on vinyl, one accepts that. However, what I have found is that since the hiss is quite constant in volume and frequency (somewhat like pink noise) that after a few minutes, I stop hearing it, unlike the noises of vinyl which are constantly changing. Also used tapes usually are in better condition than used vinyl (particularly non-classical vinyl from the US which tends to be more often played to death, than say opera recordings from the UK.)

                          I have lots of records (about 15K), many prerecorded 7.5 ips quarter track (about 800) and a pretty large number of 15ips 2 track tapes (over 100). In some cases, I have the same recording in vinyl and tape (either the 7.5ips quarter track or the 15ips 2 track). Nothing in my estimation beats the 15ips 2 track, usually dubbed from the original master or a generation (or 1/2 generation) from the master. The problem is cost. My tape machines are cheaper than my fancy turntable and cartridge, but the 15ips tapes are much much more expensive than vinyl, except for a very few rare used records. My 100 plus tape titles cost around the price of a new Camry (or a very nice set of interconnects).

                          BTW, there was a company in the late '70's and early '80's who did produce a good number (around 400) of quite high quality 7.5ips tapes, using dolby B noise reduction. It was called Barclay-Crocker, and I have most of their titles. They also did their duplication at a reasonable speed (not real time, but not 16x like many of the commercial 7.5ips tapes).

                          Larry
                          Last edited by astrotoy; 03-13-2016, 03:24 PM.
                          Analog- VPIClassic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeroMono, 2xAmpex ATR-102,Doshi3.0,Merrill Trident Master Tape Pre,Herron VTPH-2A
                          Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,Mykerinos,PacMicroModel2
                          Dig Play-mchNADAC, LampiPac, Roon, HQP, Oppo105
                          Electronics-Doshi Pre,CJ MET1mchPre, Cary2A3monoamps
                          Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
                          Other-2x512Engineer/Marutani Symmetrical Power, AudioDiskVinylCleaner,AirTightRecordFlat, Scott Rust Interconnects,
                          Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.3KR2Rtapes,50TBrips

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by astrotoy View Post
                            Essentially all vinyl released between around 1950 and 1980 were recorded on tape. So when you hear the vinyl you are hearing the master tape plus any artifacts from the multiple stages of pressing the vinyl, plus the wear and tear of playing the vinyl record, if it isn't brand new. Myles point about D2D recordings is spot on. The reason there are only a handful of them is that there is no editing and maximum sound levels cannot be exceeded. So the musicians tend to be pretty cautious in their playing, since any mistake or over exuberant playing will cause the lacquer to be ruined and the piece will have to begin again from the top.

                            One point about the old 7.5ips 4 track tapes - there is noticeable hiss on those tapes. Like groove noise and clicks and pops and surface noise on vinyl, one accepts that. However, what I have found is that since the hiss is quite constant in volume and frequency (somewhat like pink noise) that after a few minutes, I stop hearing it, unlike the noises of vinyl which are constantly changing. Also used tapes usually are in better condition than used vinyl (particularly non-classical vinyl from the US which tends to be more often played to death, than say opera recordings from the UK.)

                            I have lots of records (about 15K), many prerecorded 7.5 ips quarter track (about 800) and a pretty large number of 15ips 2 track tapes (over 100). In some cases, I have the same recording in vinyl and tape (either the 7.5ips quarter track or the 15ips 2 track). Nothing in my estimation beats the 15ips 2 track, usually dubbed from the original master or a generation (or 1/2 generation) from the master. The problem is cost. My tape machines are cheaper than my fancy turntable and cartridge, but the 15ips tapes are much much more expensive than vinyl, except for a very few rare used records. My 100 plus tape titles cost around the price of a new Camry (or a very nice set of interconnects).

                            BTW, there was a company in the late '70's and early '80's who did produce a good number (around 400) of quite high quality 7.5ips tapes, using dolby B noise reduction. It was called Barclay-Crocker, and I have most of their titles. They also did their duplication at a reasonable speed (not real time, but not 16x like many of the commercial 7.5ips tapes).

                            Larry
                            Too bad Charlie King isn't here but from what I understand, maintaining and fixing the old Dolby units is a nightmare.
                            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                            ________________________________________

                            -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                            -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                            -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                              Garth there are 22 companies now releasing 15 ips tape with over 200 titles available. And in two or three weeks, your comment will be a moot point.
                              Thats good to know has it gotten any better on Rock front last I checked the titles were few and far between. I have nothing against R2R just the lack of titles

                              Comment


                              • Johnny Vinyl
                                Johnny Vinyl commented
                                Editing a comment
                                It's the lack of Rock titles available and my opinion that we won't see many in future that took me away from considering a machine with 15ips capability. I'd pay $300 for a 15ips of DSOTM or an I ROBOT, but not for Jazz or Classical.

                              • MylesBAstor
                                MylesBAstor commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Well I would hang on for just a little longer and your wishes may come true.

                              • Garth
                                Garth commented
                                Editing a comment
                                If wishes were horses all beggars would ride
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