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  • VTA

    if vta is critical how do we compensate for vinyl thickness
    norm to 180 or 200 ?
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
    if vta is critical how do we compensate for vinyl thickness
    norm to 180 or 200 ?
    We don't or at least I don't.
    Again Al, you keep making each table adjustment a far bigger deal than it is, stop reading all the goof ball post people make

    Ok if you think about it all records are different in many ways. Some old records are supper thin that flop over as you hold them, some are heavier and thick, we also have newer 150, 180 and 200 gram records. Some records are mastered hot, some are compressed and flat sounding, some sound better if we change the stage loading or gain of our preamp. Some will play better with a different cartridge and again different staging, some will sound better on a cheaper system and playback and conversely on a better system.

    What I do is follow normal setup procedures and the factory cartridge recommendations to start with. I might try different loading and gain settings, I might try to deviate from the factory settings a bit with anti-skate and VTA. This is all just to see if it sounds a little better.

    However I set the table and leave it alone and play my records as I'm not going to make an adjustment for every single record I put on. Once the table is setup and sounds good it's good for the majority of record played and good enough for me.

    There is no perfection, there is no finite adjustment, there is no accurate measurement. If you could find it with one record, the next one you put on will not be right then.
    McIntosh C100, MC275 Mk VI x2, MC 501, D100, Marantz PMD580
    SOTA Star Sapphire x3, SME Series V x2, SME 309
    Sumiko Blackbirds & EVO III, SOTA Head Amps x3

    Comment


    • #3
      Ty for the reply nas you can read I’m a tweaker always looking for the next fix lol. So far it’s all a blast and while some adjustments make a change it seems the sweet spot is pretty big.
      analog stuff.
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
      Dacs lampi various

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
        Ty for the reply nas you can read I’m a tweaker always looking for the next fix lol. So far it’s all a blast and while some adjustments make a change it seems the sweet spot is pretty big.
        Yeah the sweet spot is pretty big, put it this way if some finite adjustment made a huge difference, then the sound quality would be way off if we didn't get it right. But if your playing records and over all it's quite enjoyable with no major distractions then you got it good and time to listen to the music and not the equipment.
        McIntosh C100, MC275 Mk VI x2, MC 501, D100, Marantz PMD580
        SOTA Star Sapphire x3, SME Series V x2, SME 309
        Sumiko Blackbirds & EVO III, SOTA Head Amps x3

        Comment


        • #5
          Maybe you just need an arm with easy, calibrated VTA on the fly adjustment capability.
          Steve Lefkowicz
          Senior Associate Editor at Positive Feedback
          --------------------------------------------------------
          http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...ounding-system

          Comment


          • #6
            Steve as I look at the needed adjustments it’s exactly how I feel.
            In fact a digital calibration Setup wound be best.
            To see what we change in real time. Of course I see the need to stop playing while we adjust too. I guess it’s all too complex for a tiny market.
            I have setup large machine shops that are very accurate in what they cut.
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
            Dacs lampi various

            Comment


            • Steve Lefkowicz
              Steve Lefkowicz commented
              Editing a comment
              Years ago, Townsend offered a turntable with remote control VTA adjustment while playing. i sat through a demo at CES. PRetty cool setup. It had a digital readout so you could mark each record for optimum setting and set it prior to playing.

          • #7
            Hi, Al: I've found that some cartridges seem more sensitive to VTA adjustments than others. When I ran Lyras, those seemed to change noticeably in sound with small adjustments; when i ran Airtights, less so. Having an arm that allows easy on the fly adjustment is nice, not necessarily to adjust record by record (although some do), but to really dial it in.
            There's a pretty well known method based on this older bluegrass record- the track itself is a stunning piece of music-
            The adjustments are incremental, based on the differences you hear in the bass and high frequencies- The record has, on several different systems over the years, proven to sound, to me, almost on a knife edge- when you get it right, you know it- otherwise, too bright or no bass,
            The method described is pretty much how it is done but the article describes some of what you should hear (and the record is worth having just for the track mentioned, lots of killer players- you can find it cheap)-
            https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html
            I used to use Janis Ian's Between the Lines- partly because it had a lot of different sounds, from female vocal to real strings and horns and I was really familiar with what the record sounds like. Many years later, I interviewed Brooks Arthur about how he made the recording- it was a lot of fiddling in the studio to get it to sound "natural."
            PS: I generally don't mess with the setting much, though my main arm has a vernier style dial that allows repeatable settings. Most of the records I listen to these days are not of the "thick" variety, but more typically stuff pressed in the '70s. When I did the setting using both the flying fish record and the janis ian record, those were both sort of 'standard' issue records. If you have an arm that allows easy repeatable settings, once you nail it for a regular issue record, you can adjust up or down as you see fit, with the ability to go back to the 'standard' setting. I also readjust once the cartridge has been broken in.

            Comment


            • #8
              Bought two of the albums to use. I also have the test albums and software too. This i enjoy ty
              analog stuff.
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
              sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
              new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
              thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
              thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
              kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
              phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
              speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
              mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
              digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
              Dacs lampi various

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                if vta is critical how do we compensate for vinyl thickness
                norm to 180 or 200 ?
                This is a very important and serious issue. I know that there are folks like Fremer who simply say "set it (at 92 degrees) and forget it". I'm not convinced that works in every case. I find VTA the bane of my audio existence because I am not willing to change it for record thickness although ideally I wish I could. One some arms, it's relatively easy. On others, such as my Goldmund T3F, it's a 20 screw/hex nut methodical adjustment that I've mastered and can do it in under 3 minutes, but it's hardly a joy. The other important consideration is that almost without exception, when you change the VTA you are changing the azimuth as well as tracking force. It's nominal of course, but it does occur and the change can be significant sonically. Depending on the tonearm design, this may not occur to the same degree (such as in the Reed 3P) as with other arms but in general, it's a devil you have to live with when you change VTA. What I'm waiting for is simply an arm whereby you can make these adjustments remotely at the listening position, with recall settings that can be calibrated at anytime to a specific arm/condition/lunar cycle/mood etc. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet. It can't be that hard and it can't be that expensive. There are tonearms out there that cost in excess of 20K. I'll bet it can be done for far less than that. I guess I shouldn't hold my breath, but man, wouldn't it be nice?

                Comment


                • #10
                  I feel the player can be moved up or down much more easy with a remote. A simple laser guide could be used to keep the setting. Azamith too. I fly RC cars and helicopters. The servos used are very sting long and very precise. It ca. Be geared to make it even more precise.
                  I agree the arm can be done too but given it’s extremely finite movement the platter seems much more easy.
                  My new sota sapphire has a magnetic levitation optimism. It raises the platter up an 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the bearing. This makes the platter much more quit. Since it moves it coujd be done more simply I think.
                  It will use the eminent technology arm ver 2 or mounts on the plinth it could be done there too.
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Very clever Al. Reminds me of the old joke "how many XXXX does it take to screw in a light bulb?" But while your solution would work for VTA, I'm not sure about azimuth and tracking force. Isn't there a viable way do all 3 remotely?

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Lol yes but azamyth should not move but testing to confirm. As for vtf we’ll not sure as the angle of the arm fulcrum changes. Having said this the vta movement is very little.
                      analog stuff.
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                      Dacs lampi various

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        I have owned and used VTA on the fly tonearms for over 15 years now. It is a critical adjustment that all of us agonize over when aligning a cartridge.

                        The problem is that a static VTA adjustment is only valid for the LP that the adjustment is done on. The minute that you change the LP, the VTA adjustment is no longer optimized.

                        It isn't just the weight of the vinyl but that certainly has an effect.

                        I use the VTA tower adjustment on my VPI 3D tonearm for VTA on the fly and it works beautifully.

                        I keep a piece of 8.5 x 11 paper with each of my LPs and that "LP Maintenance Log" has the last time the LP was cleaned, what it was cleaned with, the VTA setting, the volume setting, the catalog number, artist, title and deadwax info. The VTA setting is only agonized over the first time I play a LP and I double check it before I record the LP.

                        The "Maintenance Log" allows me to quickly set the VTA and get the volume set before I start listening.

                        I just want to listen to my music and don't want to spend time adjusting stuff. The "Maintenance Log" allows me to quickly set the VTA and volume.

                        It keeps me listening and makes my listening sessions enjoyable. At first mention, something like a "Maintenance Log" sounds like a really anal thing. In reality it is something to simplify your life.

                        If you want a copy of what I use for a Maintenance Log please let me know. I will post a link so you can get a MS Word or PDF copy of the document.

                        Ed
                        Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
                        https://www.edsstuff.org

                        Analog: VPI Prime TT w/Walnut Plinth, HRX Pulley + 3 Belt Drive + ADS Speed Ctrl, 3D Dual Pivot Assy, Tru Lift
                        Analog 2: Ortofon Windfeld Ti + Bob's Devices Sky 30 Stepup Transformer + Liberty Audio B2B-1 Phono Preamp, Stereo Squares Dust Cover
                        Digital: TASCAM UH-7000 High-res USB Interface, Pioneer DV-47Ai Universal Disc Player, NAD C446 Internet Radio/Streamer
                        Digital 2: Digital Audio Workstation (Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop w/MS Windows 10, 24GB RAM, 1.5 TB Crucial MX300 SSD Internal Storage, Intel i7-4700MQ Processor)

                        Amp: Rogue RP-9 Line Preamp, Schiit Loki Tone Ctrls, Parasound A21 Power Amp
                        Speakers: Magnepan MMC2, Magnepan DW-M Planar Woofer, REL T9/i Subwoofer
                        Headphones: Stax Lambda Pro + SRM 1 MK II, Focal Clear + Schiit Lyr 2
                        Wires: Kimber Hero ICs, Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables, AQ Leopard Phono ICs, Pangea Silver USB Cables, StraightWire Expressivo ICs

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                          if vta is critical how do we compensate for vinyl thickness
                          norm to 180 or 200 ?
                          If everything else is tuned in VTA can be crucial, unfortunately it's also the one thing surrounded by myth and voodoo when it comes to arm setup. There are tools to help with other aspects of the tonearm setup but VTA/SRA your only tools are visual to start with and your ears to zero in. I don't change VTA by record I found that if the initial setting is right then it works for almost every recording. It's a skill and it will take time to learn.

                          david
                          Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
                          Distribution: NEODIO

                          Special Sales: van den Hul
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                          http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
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                          Comment


                          • #15

                            Let me put this issue into some perspective. Assume that the perfect sra is 92 degrees. The difference between 120g and 200g vinyl is approximately 1.25mm, which translates into a SRA delta of approximately 0.25 of one degree i.e. 91.875° to 92.125° sra range.

                            If one sets their optimum sra for the midpoint of the record thickness range i.e. 160g, then the change in sra when using a non 160g record will change no more than 0.125 of a degree.

                            My question, you can more than likely measure the difference between a 0.125° change using some of the more advanced software available, but can you hear the difference?

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