Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Let's Talk Loading

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Let's Talk Loading

    Click image for larger version

Name:	20160731_192123_1470008859956.jpg
Views:	448
Size:	3.75 MB
ID:	23430

    I mounted the Atlas SL yesterday in the latest version of the VPI 3D tonearm and got to thinking about the cartridge since it's specs are a little different than the standard.

    Internal impedance: Atlas 4.2 ohms; SL version 1.52 ohms.
    Inductance: Atlas 11 uH; SL version 1.9 uH.

    Before I ran the Atlas at 100 ohms into the Doshi and now I'm looking at 3X lower. Seems awfully low and obviously will experiment. Have tried and so far seems around 80 to 90 ohms is reasonable. That make of course change as the cartridge breaks-in. So I'm wondering what everyone does for cartridge loading? Especially for some of those with very low internal impedances?

    Normally we say a rough rule of thumb is 10X internal impedance but is that defeating the purpose of an extremely low impedance cartridge? Obviously loading is meant for electromechanical braking of the cantliever and essentially anything above 100X the internal impedance is essentially unloaded. There are those out there who say that the extra "air" running unloaded is an artifact and represent odd order harmonic distortion.

    What confuses me a little bit is when people say loading varies from system to system. Why should that be unless someone is using loading as a tone control. Or phonostages very in their resistance to overload? Just like some use VTA/SRA too.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

  • #2
    I'm getting loaded right now.😎 Questions for which answers depending on the person answering will vary. I mentioned to you Myles that the Proteus in my system is excellent at 76.5 ohms coupled with 72db gain. 100 ohms sounded a bit thin and bright. The Proteus has an internal impedence of 1 ohm. Theoretically loading should be 10 ohms. I can actually get down to 33 ohms on my phono stage. That setting sounded a bit lifeless. Does J Carr follow this website? I'm sure he would have a wealth of knowledge.
    TW Acustic TT with Ref motor & controller; Tri-Planar Arm; Ortofon Windfeld-Ti Cartridge, Harmonix-Combak platter mat & weight; PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp; KLAudio Ultrasonic Record Cleaner.

    Bluesound Vault-2 Music Server & Streamer

    VTL 6.5 preamp Series II
    Pass Labs 150.8 Amp

    Piega C711 Loudspeakers

    Symposium Osiris Rack; Symposium Platforms and Roller Blocks plus grade 2.5 Balls

    Acoustic Revive RR-888 Low Frequency Pulse Generator, Synergistic Research 12 UEF SE Line Conditioner, Level 3 HC AC Cord and Level 3 power cords, Synergistic Carbon fiber wall plates, Synergistic Research Orange Outlet, Furutech NCF Booster Braces, Audio Art Ref IC, MIT Oracle IC, synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria Level 3 Balanced ICs, Synergistic Research Euphoria Level 3 Speaker Cables, Synergistic Research Cable Risers.

    Sennheiser HDV 650 Headphone Amp; Sennheiser HD800s Headphones.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think my Allnic is set for 80 ohms with the Airtight Supreme, which is pretty low internal impedance. I did try some other settings, easy enough to do on that unit, but it sounds right and is consistent with the math/rule of thumb. I ran the earlier Airtight wide open through the MM input when I had the Steelhead, but there were certain limitations to the sound-despite tube rolling some NOS Teles and others- that couldn't be overcome. The transformer input was glorious at certain frequencies, but seemed to ring on others- I never figured that one out, despite the various settings I tried.

      Comment


      • Paul S
        Paul S commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Bill, which Allnic are you using?

    • #4
      Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]n23430[/ATTACH]

      I mounted the Atlas SL yesterday in the latest version of the VPI 3D tonearm and got to thinking about the cartridge since it's specs are a little different than the standard.

      Internal impedance: Atlas 4.2 ohms; SL version 1.52 ohms.
      Impedance: Atlas 11 uH; SL version 1.9 uH.

      Before I ran the Atlas at 100 ohms into the Doshi and now I'm looking at 3X lower. Seems awfully low and obviously will experiment. Have tried and so far seems around 80 to 90 ohms is reasonable. That make of course change as the cartridge breaks-in. So I'm wondering what everyone does for cartridge loading? Especially for some of those with very low internal impedances?

      Normally we say a rough rule of thumb is 10X internal impedance but is that defeating the purpose of an extremely low impedance cartridge? Obviously loading is meant for electromechanical braking of the cantliever and essentially anything above 100X the internal impedance is essentially unloaded. There are those out there who say that the extra "air" running unloaded is an artifact and represent odd order harmonic distortion.

      What confuses me a little bit is when people say loading varies from system to system. Why should that be unless someone is using loading as a tone control. Or phonostages very in their resistance to overload? Just like some use VTA/SRA too.
      Of course we can it use as a sort of tone control that's the beauty of analog! Sometimes I prefer different SUT with one cartridge and another SUT with others, this flexibility is part of the format. If by loading you mean a knob or switch with a bunch of associated values, I doubt that any of those values are universal or always true.

      david
      Last edited by david k; 08-02-2016, 03:01 AM.
      Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
      Distribution: NEODIO

      Special Sales: van den Hul
      Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

      Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
        "Impedance: Atlas 11 uH; SL version 1.9 uH."
        You did mean inductance.
        TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

        "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

        Comment


        • MylesBAstor
          MylesBAstor commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes, thanks for catching that! Corrected.

      • #6
        I run the Atlas at about 620 ohms (if I recall correctly - its late). The ASR Basis Exclusiv has tremendous flexibility for setting load. There were multiple sets of ears involved when the Atlas was installed and after it broke in I fine tuned load even further. One of my friends runs the Atlas at the 500 ohms preset with his ARC Ref 10. Go figure.

        Right now Myles is thinking I'm crazy running it so high and I can't imagine running it any lower. I started out at 100 ohm and it was a non-starter. Lyra's recommended range is 104-887 ohms.
        PROGRESSIVE SOUNDS FROM AROUND THE WORLD
        www.lasercd.com
        www.lasersedgegroup.com

        Rockport Aquila, Boulder 2010, Boulder 2008, Boulder 2060, Transparent Audio Reference XL, Nordost Quantum QBase8, TW Acustic AC Anniversary, TW Acustic Raven 10.5 arm, Lyra Atlas, Bricasti M1 Special Edition, SRA Scuttle3 rack + various SRA/Symposium stands

        Comment


        • #7
          I run my Shelter 501 II at 100 ohms resistive loading. It is a medium output cart. From what I recall, if you run a MC cart with insufficient loading you get boosted ringing highs.
          Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

          Comment


          • #8
            I run my Coralstone at 100.... but then again, I really can't hear a difference between 100 or 200 or 400 or ???

            Comment


            • #9
              As I just ordered a Soundsmith Paua cartridge, Peter Ledermann emailed me a personal manual for the cartridge, much more than other manufactures in my opinion. One more reason I love the Soundsmith customer service. Anyways, here is what Peter had to say about the Paua: The MINIMUM RESISTIVE LOADING for the Paua is critical. Please look on the bottom of the wooden box for marking as to that value. For current production is it typically 470 Ohms minimum. Best loading is usually 470 Ohms, but some may enjoy it better at 1000 (1K) Ohms. Bear in mind there is no harm in using a high resistance or typical MM load, but you may experience peaked high end. Conversely, loading BELOW 400 Ohms WILL result rolling off the high end, depending on how low you go. Although this loading value is often done to taste, loading too much below the stated values WILL result in a marked loss of high frequencies, and top end presentation of the cartridge – in other words, it WILL sound dull and lose imaging if you set the load resistance too low. Capacitive loading may have some effect, but will be minimal. Loading requirements will be determined by your system, and your personal listening preferences. PLEASE NOTE AGAIN that loading well below 470 Ohms will absolutely result in loss of high frequencies and sonic performance.

              Not sure if this is true of all cartridges, but seems the lower end of the suggested will be more rolled off a bit, laid back, relaxed sound and higher loads will have a peaked top end, more aggressive trebles, etc. This is a generality on my cartridge, but found this interesting.

              Comment


              • #10
                I had 2 controls (Capacitance & Resistance) on the front panel on my old Pioneer SA-9500II Integrated. They ranged from 100-400pF and 10-100kΩ. Whenever I'd install a cartridge I'd set it according to the cart specs provided, but I would also play around with the controls. Sometimes the final settings of the controls would be different than what was specified by the manufacturer, but not always. I really like this optional "user control" and having that available on the front panel is something I wish would be more of a standard.
                Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

                Comment


                • #11
                  Getting into an analog setup, I didn't realize how important a phono preamp with adjustable load settings could be. But unless you have some options for personal taste, this can really mean the difference in hating a cartridge and loving it. My Zesto Andros has the following: 10, 50, 100, 200, 300.... all the way up to 1000. Though it doesn't have an infinite amount of options, not sure how I live without these options. Setting the cartridge loading is probably more about personal taste and system synergy than anything else (see another forum post from Myles on this topic). If your system is too relaxed or rolled up, you may want load the cartridge toward a more extended treble, etc. Phono preamp load customization is definitely an under appreciated commodity, and something that never seems stressed in reviews, forums, etc. Great topic, Myles! When I was demoing the Transfiguration Axia my dealer sent me, he was loading it at 50 or 100 on his setup which also Zesto, but I found 200 was optimal in my setup and taste. Goes to show that everything is a guideline. I'm surprised in my Soundsmith Paua post above, of how wide a range the recommended loading can be, how some can love it at 470, and others prefer it at 1000. That's a pretty wide range.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Bruce B View Post
                    I run my Coralstone at 100.... but then again, I really can't hear a difference between 100 or 200 or 400 or ???
                    But you can hear a difference if you go under 100 ohms right? There is a point where everything just closes down and loses dynamics. Then you add a little focus to the picture followed by top end. After that then there's just too much brightness. But again with Nick's phono and overload, that might not be as big an issue.

                    Now when I had the Azule Platinum, I ran it at 100 ohms; Nick ran it at 500 ohms. I guess some of that might just be the phono cable used too.

                    There is one thing though that strikes me. One of reason J. Carr recommends recommends what he does is to gain dynamics, ergo, his recommendation to use a low impedance phono cable so can increase the cartridge loading and open up the dynamics. Now we throw some dynamics away as we load and sacrifice other qualities. But what happens if you have gain to spare? Would that be an issue? For instance, the latest version of Nick's phono has 74 dB or so of gain and my preamp almost 25 dB. It's quiet and gives me close to 99 dB of gain. But in other cases, preamps nowadays have around 10 dB (sometimes less) of gain and phono sections with only say 60-ish dB of gain. So a total of lets say 75 dB of gain. So when one is using say a 0.3 mV output cartridge (let's say at 5 cm/sec test record), you can't afford to throw away any gain. Different story with 100 dB.

                    Right now am until the Atlas SL is broken in, using 90 ohms.
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      I thought my A95 was too bright and thin. I had originally set the load to be around 65 or 75, 10x internal. Upped it to 110 or so and what a difference. The top end became less brittle and edgy. Love this cart now.
                      Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                      Comment


                      • lasercd
                        lasercd commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Allen that's the opposite of my experience. The greater the load the more the top end opens up. Too much load and the top end can become strident.

                      • allenh
                        allenh commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Let me get back to you on this. The trinity device for setting load is a little ambiguous. Yeah, I know that sounds strange it's just how the device is labeled and inserted into the phono and how the corresponding manual is written.

                      • JCOConnell
                        JCOConnell commented
                        Editing a comment
                        read post #9 carefully

                    • #14
                      Thought I'd just add something from the Atlas setup sheet:

                      Note that "input loading" of low impedance cartridges has compositely little to do with the cartridge's own behavior. The inductance of the cartridge signal coils will react with the cable capacitances to form spikes in the RF or ultrasonic region, potentially triggering non-linearities in the phonostage and generating audible intermodulation distortion. Optimizing the input impedance load is fundamentally about resistively dampening the RF or ultrasonic spikes so the the performance of the phonostage is not compromised.

                      Of course the recommended loading for the standard Atlas is 104-887 ohms; the SL version is determine by listening. 104 ohms being with 600 pF of capacitance and 0 dB peak; 887 with 50 pF capacitance and +6 dB.
                      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                      ________________________________________

                      -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                      -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                      -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        So how and what do people listen to/for when setting loading values once the cartridge is broken in? Plus it also a little bit of a balancing act between SRA and loading being careful not to use either as a tone control

                        Me, I bring the loading down, say to with many cartridges to 60 or 70 ohms or a point where the album sounds compressed, dark or rolled off in the upper octaves. Then I will play with loading getting to a point where all of a sudden say images coalesce or the bass starts to tighten and become more dynamic. A good vocal album or records with bass and vocals is sometimes a good guide or place to start. Then I will play more until I begin to hear the upper octaves come into play and balance. Now of course the question of how much highs is right? I find lately with changes to the system, what helps as a guide is when the loading is right, you will hear maximal transparency eg. I assume the best S/N ratio.
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                        -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X