Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cartridge channel separation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Cartridge channel separation

    I never really looked at "channel separation" in the specifications for cartridges. How important is this specification? Is it underrated? Does it matter at all? Say for example, I was looking at two cartridges a couple weeks ago, the Soundsmith Paua and the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. The listed channel separation for the Paua is 1000 Hz >34 dB and at 50-15,000 >25 dB and for the Cadenza Bronze is 24db. Can someone explain the Hertz and how this applies to musical passages and different volumes? Trying to learn more about this if possible.

  • #2
    Phono carts inherently have poor channel separation among many other 'measurable' parameters which pale compared to digital, I learned long ago to ignore it. my $0.02, Its not a good predictor of how something will sound.
    TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

    Comment


    • #3
      Have they ever done studies on how many dB of separation is needed for a solid reproduction of the soundstage? I'd guess 30-40 is sufficient.
      Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

      Comment


      • Analog21
        Analog21 commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not sure. I'm also not sure of the hertz frequency and how the channel separation changes with different frequency levels. Is the high frequency suppose to represent the trebles in listening sessions, or high pitched sounds? I would assume channel separation to be highest in the midrange for listening levels, but not sure if that is accurate. Just a guess. I also wonder if channel separation is just a measurable specifications and not always an audible difference. I'm quite a novice with this, so just trying to learn more.

    • #4
      What do you mean when you say "explain the hertz?"
      Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

      Comment


      • Analog21
        Analog21 commented
        Editing a comment
        It is a pretty open-ended question Anything pertaining to hertz and listening levels, channel separation, spatial presentation and how frequency levels can impact this. Generally, what frequencies are inaudible, what is the hertz range of the bass, midrange, treble, etc. How does the hertz level (frequency) impact channel separation and defined imaging/soundstage, and should a higher priced cartridge always have better channel separation at all frequencies?

    • #5
      Cartridge channel separation is not constant over the entire frequency spectrum hence manufacturers specify the separation at the fixed value of 1Khz. I don't know why it's 1Khz but that is the tone you will find on all the test records. If you allow me to speculate I would guess that it's probably because 1Khz is near the center of musical information and also perhaps because the cartridges have the best separation at that point.

      When you adjust azimuth on your cartridge to minimize crosstalk you are essentially optimizing the channel separation value.
      Kronos Pro/SCPS + Zyx Omega Premium -> Trulife Argo -> Schiit Ragnarok -> Event Opal Monitors

      Comment


      • MylesBAstor
        MylesBAstor commented
        Editing a comment
        I think like most measurements, it was adopted to show the product off at its best.

    • #6
      Originally posted by Chris F View Post
      Cartridge channel separation is not constant over the entire frequency spectrum hence manufacturers specify the separation at the fixed value of 1Khz. I don't know why it's 1Khz but that is the tone you will find on all the test records. If you allow me to speculate I would guess that it's probably because 1Khz is near the center of musical information and also perhaps because the cartridges have the best separation at that point.

      When you adjust azimuth on your cartridge to minimize crosstalk you are essentially optimizing the channel separation value.
      what if the cart measures -29 in one channel and -35 in another with stylus perpendicular to the groove? this is a QC problem, maybe the coils are misaligned. you can't always compensate with azimuth because you create a whole host of new problems
      TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

      "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

      Comment


      • #7
        Originally posted by Rob View Post

        what if the cart measures -29 in one channel and -35 in another with stylus perpendicular to the groove? this is a QC problem, maybe the coils are misaligned. you can't always compensate with azimuth because you create a whole host of new problems
        I think I'd be cautious with something like the above. However, just due to the construction of a cartridge eg how its wound on the former, many don't have the separation in both channels anyway.
        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
        ________________________________________

        -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
        -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

        Comment


        • GaryB
          GaryB commented
          Editing a comment
          At the turntable setup seminar that I attended a week and half ago (given by Michael Fremer) he recommended adjusting for balanced crosstalk in left and right channels even if that doesn't give the absolute minimum in one channel. Using the example of -29 in one channel and -35 in the other, Fremer recommends adjusting for -29 and -29 or whatever one can get as the best balance.
          ----Gary

        • MylesBAstor
          MylesBAstor commented
          Editing a comment
          Did Mikey talk about using the Feickert phase vs. Foz crosstalk method for setting azimuth?

        • GaryB
          GaryB commented
          Editing a comment
          Mikey proposed using something similar to the Feikert method but he didn't actually recommend the Feikert adjust+ test sytem. Instead he said to find a test record with information recorded on only the left channel and then only the right channel and then he suggested using a digital oscilloscope to measure crosstalk as azimuth is adjusted +2, +1, 0, -1, -2 degrees. Then plot the results for both channels and find the azimuth where one gets the same crosstalk. QED.
          He didn't discuss the fozgometer at all.
          ---Gary

      • #8
        My Allaerts MC2 Finish specs at 60db separation at 1khz. This cartridge definitely does width, depth and height well...regardless what the spec says...
        Speakers: Rockport Altair 2
        Amps: Nagra HD Pre Amp & HD Amps
        Cables: Transparent Magnum Opus speaker and interconnects
        Power Transparent Opus Power Cords & Opus Isolators
        Digital dCS Vivaldi full stack w/ Transparent Reference XL Digital cables
        Phono: Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 TT, Spiral Groove Centroid, Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement, Nagra Classic Phono & PSU
        Racks: Grand Prix Audio Silverstone F1 (x4)

        Comment


        • Rob
          Rob commented
          Editing a comment
          I had an Allaerts MC1 boron, Jan specs the same channel separation @ 60 db, sonically I couldnt put my finger on the spec sheet and corroborate it with anything I heard. It didn't stay in my quiver too long, at the time I prefered the Transfiguration.

      • #9
        Man, this is something I never even think about- if it is on the record, I hear it. Multi-tracks can be mucked up pretty well, but can still have a distinct "landscape"- with a big wide deep image that can trick you into the illusion of "real" but who knows? For classical and jazz recordings that aren't messed with too much, it pretty much varies, record by record, doesn't it? I guess a cartridge with better channel separation will give you more discreet information, but isn't the real driver the particular record/pressing and behind that, the recording and mix?

        Comment


        • Analog21
          Analog21 commented
          Editing a comment
          I think so too Bill. My thinking it is always the source that is primary driver, and the better the cartridge other components, the more can be expressed on that superior recording. I just never thought about channel separation much and to what degree it is important.
      Working...
      X