So, How Do You Set VTA Anyway?

[EdAInWestOC]

It seems like the setting of VTA, or SRA if you want to be more accurate, is one of those loaded topics where some people side on VTA on the fly and others adhere to a set it and forget it approach. It isn't that big of a deal if you are running a cartridge with a conical stylus. The shape of the stylus isn't sensitive to the SRA. If you have a cartridge with a line contact type stylus, the setting of SRA is every bit as critical as the adjustment of azimuth.

The shape of the stylus is meant to more carefully trace fine, high frequency content in the grooves of your records. Line contact stylii are all born of the same general shape. They are shaped like a spade shovel with long, tall narrow edges that can more carefully trace the content in the grooves.

Here is a photo of a VdH Type 1, Fritz Geiger and Shibata stylus showing the tall and long edges meant to accurately trace the groove contents.






The way that the stylus rests in the groove is critical to achieving the best reproduction and lowest distortion possible. The azimuth determines whether the tip of the stylus sits as deep as it can in the groove and each side of the stylus traces evenly on each side of the groove. The SRA determines whether that long edge that rests against the side of the groove traces as closely as possible in a perpendicular arrangement from the bottom to the top of the groove.

If either the azimuth or SRA is not correct you are not getting the best performance from your stylus/cartridge and you increase the amount of distortion caused by the odd angle you are asking the stylus to perform at. Tonearms with VTA on the fly are getting more commonplace. Perhaps this is due to market pressure or due to the fact that vinyl playback is currently the home of perfectionist audiophile maniacs. Like us.

Those who do accept that SRA is critical sometimes accept a compromise where the SRA is very carefully set on one LP. All subsequent LPs are then played with the same setting. Those who do not care about the SRA issue approach this setting by setting the tonearm parallel to the surface of the record surface. I hope that the "parallel people" don't have a cartridge with a line contact type stylus. If they do it is a waste of money and they are missing a lot of performance, intentionally.

Those who accept the SRA setting as important but compromise with a static setting are at least trying to address the situation. Unfortunately some very fine tonearms lack VTA on the fly and you have no alternative other than set it and forget it. It seems like a shame because all of the very fine machining and engineering that went into creating a great tonearm is left to a compromise because of the lack of VTA on the fly. Those who are in this camp will argue that VTA on the fly is not necessary and they will pull out spreadsheets full of calculations to supposedly prove that VTA on the fly is not necessary.

All you have to do is look at the shape of the stylus and consider how it rests in the groove to see the truth. Very small adjustments to the VTA/SRA can make a difference. On a well pressed LP with well recorded content the SRA with a line contact stylus will make a difference. How audible the changes will be is not known and you have to try it to see. The attitude of the "set it and forget it" crowd is very hard to understand. The same people who will spend thousands of dollars on a cable to extract a small amount of sonic benefit can ignore the angle that a line contact stylus rests in the groove. In the end we are people and the best thing to do is to not expect sense.

For the rest of us who do value VTA on the fly there are things to consider. If you are like me, I don't agonize over the VTA setting. I do try and get it right if I am recording the LP or if I am spinning a new LP for the first time. I am anal enough that I keep a single 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper with each LP in my collection. That document is titled the LP Maintenance Log. On that piece of paper is the LP name, catalog number, artist, serial number (where appropriate), volume setting and VTA setting. The document also includes a table where the date, type of cleaning and fluids used is recorded. On the flip side of the document is the deadwax information.

When I pull out a LP for playing I can glance at the info and set the volume on my line stage and VTA on my VPI 3D arm. The VTA setting is determined for each LP by raising the tonearm up until the sound gets strident. I then slowly lower the tonearm until the sound achieves a good tonal balance. This is usually the point where everything snaps into focus and I pull out a pen and write down the number on the VPI 3D VTA tower.

All of the above said, there are reasons why the VTA needs to be accounted for. The obvious one is the weight of the vinyl. As the vinyl gets thicker the relationship of the stylus to the groove changes. The surface of a 200gm LP is higher than a 140 gm LP. This changes the angle that the stylus sits in the groove. Yes, it is a small change but the point where the line contact stylus is optimally tracing the groove is a very narrow point. Small changes can make a difference.

Unfortunately the thickness of the vinyl is not the only consideration. Different record labels seem to produce records that are mastered differently, from a VTA perspective. Many decades ago there was a tonearm named the Loci. It had VTA on the fly and that was unique for the time. The manufacturer of the Loci created a document that specified which record labels should be set to what VTA setting on their tonearm. The contents of that document are below:

Record Label	VTA	Record Label	VTA	Record Label	VTA
A&M	6.5	Eurodisk	6.0	Olivia	3.0
ABC	4.0	Everest	4.0	Olympic	5.0
Acanta	7.5	Fermata	5.5	Opus	3.0
Accent	5.0	Festivo	5.0	Orion	5.0
America	5.5	Flying Fish	4.5	Ornx	4.5
American Gramophone	4.5	Fontana	4.5	PA-USA	3.0
Analogue Recordings	4.5	Fourth Stream	6.0	Pablo	5.0
Angel	5.5	Franklin Mint	4.0	Pandora	4.5
Apple	3.0	FSM	4.5	Panton	5.0
Arabesque	6.0	Full Moon	5.5	Passport	4.5
Archive	3.0	Genesis	3.5	PA USA	5.5
Argo	4.0	GNP Crecendo	5.0	Pearl	6.0
Arista	5.0	Grapevine	5.0	Peerless	4.5
ARK	4.5	Green Linnet	5.0	Pelican	6.0
Astree	8.0	Harmonia Mundi	2.5	Peters International	4.5
Asylum	3.5	Harmony	5.5	Philips	5.0
ATCO	4.0	Harvest	3.5	Philo	5.0
Attic	5.0	Haydn Society	7.5	Polydor	5.0
Audiogram	4.5	Heliodor	5.5	Poseidon	3.5
AVI	4.5	HNH	5.0	Prestige	4.5
BASF	5.0	Horzu	4.5	Privilege	3.0
BIS	4.5	Hungaraton	4.0	Proprius	6.5
Black Lion	6.0	INA	5.0	PVC	4.5
Blue Note	5.0	In Concert	6.0	Qualiton	4.0
Blue Thumb	3.0	Inner City	6.0	Quest (WB)	3.5
Calliope	5.5	Intercord	4.0	Quintessance	6.0
Canadian-American	4.5	Interplay	4.5	RCA	5.5
Candide	4.0	I.R.S.	3.5	Reference Recordings	4.0
Capitol	3.0	Island	3.0	Reprise (WB)	3.5
Caprice	2.0	Ivory	5.0	Rounder	6.0
Capricorn	5.5	Janus	4.0	Schwann	7.5
Cara	5.5	Japo	3.0	Seraphim	5.5
CBS	5.5	JEM	4.5	Shanachie	6.0
Chandis	5.0	JRB	3.0	Sheffield	5.0
Charisma	5.5	Jugaton	4.5	Sine Qua Non	4.5
Chesky	4.5	Kebec	4.0	Sire	4.0
Chrysalis (WB)	3.5	Kicking Mule	4.5	Sonet	5.0
Circle	6.0	Klavier	2.5	Steeple Chase	4.5
City Lights	6.5	L’oiseau-Lyre	4.5	Summit	6.5
Classic	2.5	Le Chant Du Monde	8.0	Supraphon	5.0
Coda	3.0	Little David	2.5	Sutra	2.5
Colgems	3.5	London	6.0	Takoma	3.5
Columbia	5.5	Lyrachord	6.0	TBS	4.5
Concord	5.0	M&K	4.5	Telefunken	6.0
Connoisseur	5.0	Mainstream	4.0	Temple	3.5
Corona	2.5	Mark Levinson	7.0	Three Blind Mice	5.0
Coronado	3.5	Matador	3.0	Titanic	3.0
Cryonic	4.0	MBM	6.5	Transatlantic	3.5
Crystal Clear	5.0	MCA	3.0	Trip	5.5
Crystal	2.5	Melodia	5.5	Turnabout	3.0
CTI	2.5	Mercury	4.5	Umbrella	6.0
Da Camera Magna	4.0	MF Records	5.0	Unicorn	4.0
Danacord	4.0	MGM	4.5	United Artists	4.0
DCC	4.0	Milestone	4.0	Universal City (MCA)	3.0
Decca	5.0	Minos	3.0	Vanguard	6.5
Delerium	6.0	Mobile Fidelity	5.0	Varrick	6.0
Delos	4.5	Monitor	5.5	Vertigo	4.0
Deutsche Grammophone	3.0	MPS	5.5	Verve	5.0
DJM	5.0	Muse	3.0	Virgin	4.0
DRG	7.0	Musical Heritage Society	4.5	Vista	4.5
Dunhill	4.0	Narada	5.5	Vox	3.0
ECM (Germany)	4.5	Nautilus	6.0	Warner Brothers	3.5
Elektra	3.5	Nimbus	4.0	Wergo	4.0
EMI	6.0	Nippon	5.0	Windham Hill	3.0
Enja	4.5	NKF	6.0	Wright and Perry	7.5
Epic	5.5	Nonesuch	7.5	Xanadu	7.0
Eterna	4.0	Novus	4.0
Euphoria	4.0	Odyssey	5.5

The Loci VTA information points to differences between LPs pressed for different labels. Whether the cause for these differences is in the lacquer cutting, the thickness of the lacquer itself or the thickness of the vinyl used for the label's pressings, the Loci manufacturer noted the differences above. Some of the differences are fairly extreme (based on the magnitude of the numbers - see the red text). The point being that the mastering and pressing of LPs from different manufacturers seem to have differences large enough to take into consideration.

The thickness of the LP as well as other factors must be taken into account if you are going to try to get the VTA set correctly. This goes full circle and as I said above, I only do this once and write it down. How you do it or whether you do it is up to you. Its just a good thing to realize it exists. You decide if you want to do something about it.

Ed

[Rob]

Ed, How do you arrive at a baseline for setting SRA with a given VTF, etc?

Here's a pic of an Allaerts MC-1 I used to own taken with a dino lite. to Myles' point in another thread, knowing the angle of the cutter head when the lacquers were produced are almost as important the bottom illustration is from Ortofon's site.









STYLUS RAKE ANGLE (SRA)


With a complex stylus shape like the Replicant 100, there must be special attention paid to positioning the diamond in the groove.

The Stylus Rake Angle (SRA - see figure) is very important to the performance of the Replicant 100 stylus, and the long contact surface (the sharp edge) of the diamond should be almost perpendicular to the record surface when viewed from the side. The angle between the record surface and the cantilever is close to 23 degrees when SRA is 90 degrees.

A perfect starting point is to set the tonearm parallel to the record surface and to use the recommended tracking force. The contact surface will be close to perpendicular to the record surface with this setting. The SRA can now gradually and carefully be changed be adjusting VTF and, if necessary, the tonearm height. The target should be an SRA around 92 degrees, determined by the listening experience. In other words, the point of the stylus should point slightly towards the tonearm base.

[EdAInWestOC]

You can set the VTA by measurement with lasers and USB cameras but in the end its all about listening to the music. You really have to set the VTA by ear. All the other ways can get you close to what should be but its all conversation fodder in the end. Its how it sounds that matters. Setting the stylus at 92 degrees assumes that the lacquer was cut exactly at the correct angle. One would assume thats the way it is but variations exist in everything done by man. You will never know until you listen to the results.

After its set at 92 degrees will you repeat that adjustment with each LP? Considering the Loci data, different LPs are cut differently. What about these?

PS. I set the initial VTA when the LP is first spun or when I am about to record the LP. I keep a single piece of paper titled the "LP Maintenance Log" with each LP in my collection. On it is the VTA setting for that LP so I can return to that setting each time the LP is played. I have uploaded a copy of that document here (http://www.edsstuff.org/LP Maintenance Log.docx) if anyone is curious.

Ed

[squasher]

The VTA setting is determined for each LP by raising the tonearm up until the sound gets strident. I then slowly lower the tonearm until the sound achieves a good tonal balance.

IMHO, the best description of the process of setting VTA/SRA was given by Doug Deacon. The following is a cut-and-paste of his description from an Audiogon forum thread:

"What to listen for?
Frank Schroeder describes it as "the integration of fundamental and harmonics across the time domain". What????? Actually that's a perfect description. (FWIW, in less resolving setups you'll hear a shift in perceived frequency balance, but that's due to system-induced mud. Your system appears to be more resolving than that.)

Every note from a real, acoustic instrument is composed of a fundamental plus higher order harmonics. If the arm base is too high, you'll hear the higher frequency harmonics BEFORE the fundamental. The ring and hiss off a cymbal begin before the actual tap. (In that less resolving system it'll just sound "bright".) If the arm base is too low, you'll hear the fundamental followed by an unnatural time lag before the harmonics. (In that less resolving system it'll just sound bass-heavy.) When SRA is just right, the tap and the resulting harmonics will be tight and properly integrated in the TIME domain, as Frank said. (I heard all this before I heard Frank offer that description, but I can't think of a better or more succinct one.)"


On a related topic, I find that Kuzma arms have the best on-the-fly VTA adjustments of all the arms I've owned and tried. The process on the Kuzma Airline and 4Point is convenient, requires no tools, and there is ZERO noticeable play or backlash in the arm when making the VTA change.

[EdAInWestOC]

I like that description. It is one of the best I've heard. My description is a quick and simple description. It seems to me that the integration of fundamentals and harmonics occurs about the same point that the tonal balance is arrived at. The ideal VTA adjustment point is pretty small and can be obvious depending on the source material. I like focusing on cymbals and piano.

I've owned a VPI 3D arm for 2.5 months now and I'm also impressed with its VTA on the fly. Adjusting the VTA while the LP is spinning is very easy and results in zero tonearm movement. I guess it would need to since the 3D arm is a unipivot (that up until very recently did not have a 2nd pivot point for stabilization). It would not help if every time you adjusted the VTA the arm would start rocking. ;8^))

[MylesBAstor]

You can also easily hear that small spot with solo piano. Take one of the Ivan Moravec's on Conmoisseur Society for example. Just like with a camera, you can actually hear that point where the instrument's image and palpability "snaps" into focus.

[MylesBAstor]

IMHO, the best description of the process of setting VTA/SRA was given by Doug Deacon. The following is a cut-and-paste of his description from an Audiogon forum thread:

"What to listen for?
Frank Schroeder describes it as "the integration of fundamental and harmonics across the time domain". What????? Actually that's a perfect description. (FWIW, in less resolving setups you'll hear a shift in perceived frequency balance, but that's due to system-induced mud. Your system appears to be more resolving than that.)

Every note from a real, acoustic instrument is composed of a fundamental plus higher order harmonics. If the arm base is too high, you'll hear the higher frequency harmonics BEFORE the fundamental. The ring and hiss off a cymbal begin before the actual tap. (In that less resolving system it'll just sound "bright".) If the arm base is too low, you'll hear the fundamental followed by an unnatural time lag before the harmonics. (In that less resolving system it'll just sound bass-heavy.) When SRA is just right, the tap and the resulting harmonics will be tight and properly integrated in the TIME domain, as Frank said. (I heard all this before I heard Frank offer that description, but I can't think of a better or more succinct one.)"


On a related topic, I find that Kuzma arms have the best on-the-fly VTA adjustments of all the arms I've owned and tried. There is ZERO noticeable play or backlash in the arm or adjustment when making the adjustments.

That's what I described in my Colibri review with the Jeton D2D.

But that goes way back to David Shreve's article in TAS and in its adapted format here. David used back then the Nonesuch record Heliotrope to set VTA. Another album that has proved useful over the many years in setting up cartridges (one that Dave Wilson also uses/d) was his recording Razzmatazz.

There of course is another thing to consider. With a non-neutral balanced design, raising or lowering the arm can also change VTF and ergo VTA. The Graham is a neutral balance arm and avoids that issue.

[skipper]

Hello there,
I just came across this thread and having VdH Colibri I would like to hear from you how you set Colibri SRA i.e. what lines are you measuring. I am having issue with mine and suspect that the way I set SRA is not correct given the stylus shape. Please advise.

[EdAInWestOC]

I did a little research and you can read about the Loci tonearm here: http://www.the-adam.com/adam/loci-4tn/


The Loci is a tonearm based on an articulated parallelogram. The effect of this arrangement is that the VTA, once set, remains constant regardless of LP thickness. The VTA setting on the Loci tonearm is made by making one of the sides of the parallelogram slightly longer or shorter. The numbers provided on my initial post in this thread are those settings on the Loci articulated parallelogram. If you are curious see the link above. The page includes the US patents for the Loci and some photos.

Ed

[david k]

I'm in the set it up once for a cartridge and forget it camp I don't see how one can realistically adjust VTA/SRA for every record with all the variables in the recordings and the time it takes to get the correct VTA/SRA, nor do I see it necessary if it's done right the first time. Of course I can only speak to the arms I use you might have to with some arms or if your initial setup isn't quite right.

david

[Johnny Vinyl]

Set it and forget I say. If this exercise were to take merely a minute I would reconsider, but I suspect it takes quite some time. Sure can you keep a record of it with each LP, but frankly I'm not that disciplined.

How long does it take?

[david k]

It depends a lot on the person doing the setup Johnny, it's a skill and the more you've done it the faster and easier it becomes. The arm and the system come into play too, as it is I can setup most better arms from scratch in about hour but in the past it could have taken me hours, days even weeks to do the same thing and there were times that it was never right.

david

[EdAInWestOC]

I agree with David. It is a skill that becomes easier with experience. Like I began this thread, its something that I only do once per album and then I write it down. From that point forward its a simple twist of the VTA knob to the number that I wrote down. Writing it down is not a matter of discipline, it saves you a lot of work so its an easy thing to justify.

The initial setting of the VTA is performed as you listen to the LP. I start at a point I know is wrong and then slowly adjust a small step at a time until I am sure I have it locked in. It's not a hard thing to do. It rarely takes more than 3 tries to get it correct.

The hardest part of this is when you change cartridges and you are finding the "home" spot for your VTA range. You can start with the arm level with the platter and raise it until the high frequencies get strident. Then you lower the VTA until the sound locks in. You listen for the tonal balance as a guide and then focus on the fundamentals/harmonics blend. When acoustical instruments sound realistic, you have it.

Human Note: Don't get me wrong here. I do not agonize over VTA and worry about whether I am getting the last bit of performance out of my gear. What I really want is to enjoy music. If I can enhance that enjoyment by twisting a knob, then fine. I do understand not wanting to worry over this thing. It really does exist and you can choose whether you want to do something about it. Personally, if I have to spend too much effort trying to get it right i start questioning whether its worth the effort. I will spend a reasonable effort to make it right then I'm sitting down to enjoy the tunes. At least thats my view of the thing.

[Rob]

You can set the VTA by measurement with lasers and USB cameras but in the end its all about listening to the music. You really have to set the VTA by ear. All the other ways can get you close to what should be but its all conversation fodder in the end. Its how it sounds that matters. Setting the stylus at 92 degrees assumes that the lacquer was cut exactly at the correct angle. One would assume thats the way it is but variations exist in everything done by man. You will never know until you listen to the results.

After its set at 92 degrees will you repeat that adjustment with each LP? Considering the Loci data, different LPs are cut differently. What about these?

PS. I set the initial VTA when the LP is first spun or when I am about to record the LP. I keep a single piece of paper titled the "LP Maintenance Log" with each LP in my collection. On it is the VTA setting for that LP so I can return to that setting each time the LP is played. I have uploaded a copy of that document here (http://www.edsstuff.org/LP Maintenance Log.docx) if anyone is curious.

This is where we part company, inferring that setting your SRA by the most accurate means as "conversation fodder" is an over simplification. I guess when you take your car in to get a front end alignment you tell the tech to just "eyeball it" and not put it on a rack with calibrated measuring equipment.

Using your ears as the final arbiter is not in question, what I do question is how you know for sure you're anywhere near 92 degrees using listening tests alone and then when you adjust yer VTA "on the fly" do you know the degree of deviation used to compensate for cutting angles, vinyl thickness etc? If you truly want verifiable and repeatable data, IMHO the uSB camera is indispensable and more accurate than following the indices printed on the VTA adjustment knob.

[EdAInWestOC]

If I misunderstood Rob I apologize and hope he's not offended by anything. The "camp" thing is about how we view VTA adjustment. It is something that people differ on. I do not subscribe to measuring for 92 degrees based on the reasons I stated. It has been referred to multiple times and I was trying to explain why I do not believe in the approach. I refer to people who believe in various point of view as "camps" not as a means to be insulting but as a way to describe groups. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Rob]

Ed, no apologies needed my skin is way thicker than that this is a good discussion and OP

[EdAInWestOC]

I'm glad Rob...

[david k]

This is where we part company, inferring that setting your SRA by the most accurate means as "conversation fodder" is an over simplification. I guess when you take your car in to get a front end alignment you tell the tech to just "eyeball it" and not put it on a rack with calibrated measuring equipment.

Using your ears as the final arbiter is not in question, what I do question is how you know for sure you're anywhere near 92 degrees using listening tests alone and then when you adjust yer VTA "on the fly" do you know the degree of deviation used to compensate for cutting angles, vinyl thickness etc? If you truly want verifiable and repeatable data, IMHO the uSB camera is indispensable and more accurate than following the indices printed on the VTA adjustment knob.

I'm sorry Rob but since you can't setup VTA/SRA visually and final judgement is how it sounds the camera is moot for me. I have a lot of studio photography experience and even with that setting up a USB camera is too much work and limited in scope. I don't see the difference between using your eyes or a gadget for what at best is a starting point when you still have to get it to sound right from there. With so many arms and cartridges I have to be very precise with my setup and it's perfectly doable without a microscope, but definitely do it right and do it once!

david

[Guest]

This is where we part company, inferring that setting your SRA by the most accurate means as "conversation fodder" is an over simplification. I guess when you take your car in to get a front end alignment you tell the tech to just "eyeball it" and not put it on a rack with calibrated measuring equipment.

Using your ears as the final arbiter is not in question, what I do question is how you know for sure you're anywhere near 92 degrees using listening tests alone and then when you adjust yer VTA "on the fly" do you know the degree of deviation used to compensate for cutting angles, vinyl thickness etc? If you truly want verifiable and repeatable data, IMHO the uSB camera is indispensable and more accurate than following the indices printed on the VTA adjustment knob.

Rob I agree, the USB 'scope can get you closer to 92°.

I'm also a bit skeptical of USB 'scope accuracy as a result of actually using one. To begin I'll offer that the 'scope stand is critical.

1 - How do you get the 'scope lens exactly parallel to the ... the side of the cartridge?, the stylus? - or put differently, perpendicular to a line bisecting the stylus from the front. I'd love to hear/learn actual technique used. Rob, Andre?

2 - What's the best way to orient the 'scope so that the baseline on which the stylus sits is at 0° (or 180)? Even putting a lined index card behind can be somewhat dodgy.

3 - I use the DinoLite line tools to draw the lines that allow it to figure angles. Even with the clearest picture it is easy to be off by a pixel or two which changes the result. I've heard that Visio is better for this and does the calculations, but I have not used it.

These issues don't come from choosing a USB 'scope per se - they are my issues with using one. Now I use the Wally VTA thingie to get the headshell parallel to the platter, make a note of where that lands on the 4Point's VTA scale and work from there. I wish every tonearm maker would specifiy how much their VTA marks represent in millimeters.

Which USB microscope and drawing tool(s) do you use? Thanks for any tips you have that might make its use more compeliing.

[EdAInWestOC]

I have not visited Peter Ledermann's website (SoundSmith) in some months and I was interested to read his take on the VTA/SRA adjustment. https://www.sound-smith.com/soundsmi...ge-alignment#6

[MylesBAstor]

I want to post this excerpt from the link just for those who don't have the time to read the whole page. But I do suggest visiting Peter's page.

"Firstly, let me explain a bit about VTA vs. SRA. This is a complex subject, one that is one of the most misunderstood aspects of cartridge design, manufacturing and alignment.

VTA is a term that describes the CANTILEVER tracking angle. Soundsmith uses cantilevers with VARIED designs of VTA. The universe of cartridges have historically been made with varied cantilever tracking angles over the many years, from as low as 15 degrees to as high as 30 or more. The angle of the cantilever is of little value, as it describes only the design of a particular cartridges use of a particular cantilever/stylus design. What is finally important is always the SRA, or Stylus Rake Angle. That must always be 2 degrees, raked back towards the direction of the incoming groove in the record – that matches the way most all records are made.

Soundsmith uses varied cantilevers, with varied VTA’s; these can change slightly from unit to unit as there is often variation in the mounting of the diamond as well as the faceting of the diamond. Many cartridge manufacturers do not take this into account carefully, and as a result, the resultant SRA can vary badly from unit to unit. Michael Fremer did an expose’ some time ago showing a very expensive NEW cartridge where the VTA was correct, but the SRA was not “just a bit off”, - in fact, it was not even close to being -2 degrees, but was PLUS 10 degrees. He posted a picture of it.

Recently the use of USB microscopes has brought a plethora of “experts” who believe they are viewing the SRA correctly. Often, they are fooled by the optics, an issue also complicated by the fact that by not realizing that by viewing the “shank” of the diamond they are not viewing the actual facet angle which traces the groove walls. This facet edge position VARIES from diamond to diamond within a single diamond stylus design as the shaft of the diamond is not always held perfectly in the tool that is used to hold it while the facets are being made. It can vary as much as +/- 4 degrees easily – WITHOUT the ability of being easily observed.

So, while folks believe that they obtaining correct SRA by viewing either the edge facet itself, the cantilever VTA or the diamond shaft, they can still be very far off. Knowing the VTA of a particular cantilever/diamond design is therefore of little value. Also of extreme importance is the fact that a STATIC view of SRA - versus how the cantilever moves UP when the record is playing, offers additional degrees of ERROR when using a USB microscope to determine proper SRA.

An interesting case is the diamond we use in many of our models, including the Sussurro. Many who view that diamond with optical aids are shocked to see that it is raked back by what appears to be as much as 20 degrees, and have questioned Soundsmith’s ability to mount a stylus.

This particular diamond we use in several of our designs has a “HIDDEN” facet at the bottom, thus returning the SRA to 2 degrees raked inward. A discussion of our stylus in this regard, and the explanation, can be found here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=927659

The most important thing to know when setting up ANY cartridge is that if it lucky enough to have been made correctly, that when the cartridge is mounted, the tone arm should be parallel with the surface of the record. SRA adjustments up and down from there can be made, and there are many ways to do this by ear, with advice coming from many sources – sometimes with opposing views - all posted on the web.

Soundsmith cartridges differ from others in this respect; since we well recognize the many extreme variables in mounting, manufacturing and attaching diamonds and cantilevers – as well as the SUSPENSION differences from cartridge to cartridge in ALL types of cartridges, we make every effort to adjust each of our cartridges individually to the variable nature of the true SRA of each cantilever/stylus assembly.

Therefore, we assume that people who know about mounting and aligning cartridges know that one always starts with the tone arm parallel to the record, and adjusts up or down from there to listening preference. "

[Rob]

I hold Peter L's view up there with the best, he has probably forgot more about cartridges than I will ever know. the fact remains cartridge styli and the cartridges themselves are made with the aid of a microscope, every aspect of its manufacture relies on it. they can't be made accurately--if at all--without one. setting up a cartridge also requires magnification of some kind.

but when the rubber hits the road as it were, we're supposed to disregard the use of microscopes because at the end of the day--by Peter's reckoning--it doesn't matter. his advice presupposes all cartridges are like his (baseline SRA with the cartridge body parallel with the record surface) As he alludes not all cart mfrs build their carts like Soundsmith which, in my mind, brings us back full circle to employing the use of magnifyling devices or at the very least looking at your cart under high magnification to see whatcha got. if I catch Peter at the LA show I'll ask him.

[jonathanb]

Shouldn't cartridge manufacturers include an SRA measurement for each cartridge they produce? It would be a lot more useful than a frequency response plot and would help eliminate a lot of setup hassles.

[EdAInWestOC]

SRA is something that can vary for each cartridge of any model. Cartridge manufacturers get their cantilevers/stylii from a supplier and even the supplier cannot guarantee the SRA of each and every cantilever and stylus. I doubt that the manufacturer would stop and measure each and every stylus in the cantilever for every cartridge produced. Even knowing this information you cannot tell what sounds the best unless you actually audition the cartridge after you make the adjustments.

The adjustment is only relevant for the LP being adjusted against. And you cannot tell how the specific LP was mastered and whether that LP was cut exactly at the angle you hope it should be so the 92 degrees will be optimum.

[jonathanb]

So they can stop and generate a frequency test plot for each cartridge but it's too onerous for them to determine the SRA of those cartridges?

[david k]

What kind of SRA measurement or graph that would be of any use to anyone are you talking about? It doesn't exit.

David

[PeterA]

EdAlnWestOC, nice thread topic. I fully agree with you. I adjust SRA for each LP in my collection. I write it down on a small piece of paper and slip it in the LP's outer sleeve. I do not have on-the-fly VTA adjustment on my SME V-12 arm. However, it is easy enough to adjust, and I find he effort very worthwhile. I use the mm scale on the side of the SME protractor to measure from the top of the arm base to the bottom of the arm support. The range of the settings for the LPs that I have tested is between 16mm and 18.5mm, so I have 6 settings in .5mm increments. A 1mm difference in arm height on a 9" arm translates to about a 1/4 degree shift in SRA. A 0.5mm difference in arm height is therefore about an 1/8 degree in SRA. It is even less on my 12" arm, perhaps 1/10 of a degree, and this is clearly audible in my system.

I adjust the SRA by listening to the LP and then record the setting for repeat use later. I have met Doug Deacon whose "what to listen for" description above is spot on. He taught me the process which I now follow. I have done demonstrations for my friends on my system and on theirs convincing them that the difference is audible, even a 0.5mm shift in arm height on a 12" tonearm. However, none of my vinyl audio buddies make the effort to adjust their SRA for different LPs. They are all of the set-and-forget crowd. I further agree with your comment that people obsess over different cables or footers, or cartridges, and proper SRA can make more of a sonic difference, AND IT IS FREE.

I used to adjust to 92 degrees with a USB camera, but this was a chore, and I did not want to do it for each LP. Different thickness or even the same thickness records have different original cutting angles. This is what we are trying to match. Once I realized that, the USB went into a drawer. Now everything is adjusted by ear. I do start with the arm level and go from there. Experience helps to speed up the process. I have found that I need to wait for a new cartridge to fully break in before I settle on the correct SRA.

Thank you for helping to make others aware that it is an issue and can effect sonics. You are right that it does not matter if anyone follows the suggestion. It is their choice. A digital only friend of mine has heard my SRA demonstrations and he can not believe that a serious reviewer of LPs or cartridges (or tonearms) would not adjust SRA for each LP, because my friend is convinced that one can not get optimal sound without doing so.

[MylesBAstor]

I purposely bought a dial micrometer to mount on my ET arm for measuring arm height.

But two important things are missing here. 1) Unless you have a neutral balance designed arm like say the Graham, you change VTF every time you raise or lower the arm; and 2) Every time you move the arm up or down, you can (why the ET had that special mechanism) affect overhang. Now the latter may or may not be over rated depending upon who you talk to but VTF is most certainly critical.

[EdAInWestOC]

Myles...Is there a table or some sort of data that can be printed out on the degree of changes of VTF/overhang when adjusting VTA? It would seem to be something that could be added to a spreadsheet or a calculator of some kind.

[PeterA]

Myles, I agree that other parameters change when one adjusts arm height. In my experience, some are more critical than others to the resulting sound. The final arbiter for me is how it sounds. I have experimented with adjusting VTF slightly following a change in arm height. I find that it does not have nearly as great of a sonic impact as proper SRA. IOW, for me, "close enough" with VTF is fine, but precise SRA matters more. I presume, though am not sure, that this is very system and arm type/length and cartridge design/stylus shape specific.

[mep]

snip...
Thank you for helping to make others aware that it is an issue and can effect sonics. You are right that it does not matter if anyone follows the suggestion. It is their choice.A digital only friend of mine has heard my SRA demonstrations and he can not believe that a serious reviewer of LPs or cartridges (or tonearms) would not adjust SRA for each LP, because my friend is convinced that one can not get optimal sound without doing so.

Guess your digital friend is an expert on how analog reviewers should work. I have an SME 312S arm and adjusting the SRA for every single LP would be a nightmare and the time it would take between playing each LP would cut your listening time greatly for each listening session.

[PeterA]

Guess your digital friend is an expert on how analog reviewers should work. I have an SME 312S arm and adjusting the SRA for every single LP would be a nightmare and the time it would take between playing each LP would cut your listening time greatly for each listening session.

Mep, I understand and respect your position. I happen to agree with my friend's comment about reviewers. If one can hear sonic differences between 1/8th or less of a degree of SRA and one does not adjust to optimize the sound for each LP, how can he be sure that he is hearing the best sonics from a new LP under review? It just doesn't make sense to me. My friend and I are not claiming to be experts of any kind. Some reviewers are claiming that though, or at least I would like to respect them as such, but if they don't adjust for different SRA, I tend to be a bit more skeptical about the value of their reviews. Same with cartridge reviews. It is fine if you don't agree. We just have a different opinion on the subject, that's all.

I own an SME V-12. Like your 312S, VTA adjustment is not on-the-fly, like on some offset tower designs (VPI, Durand, Tri Planar, Graham). I understand the temptation to set and forget the SME arms. They were designed for this approach. Once set, their base is extremely rigid and designed as a conduit for energy drainage, and sonic results are superb. However, I find the effort worthwhile and it takes me about 30 seconds to loosen the clamp, adjust the height, and retighten the clamp. I also often take a batch of LPs which I know have the same VTA setting and listen to them together, so I change VTA perhaps twice during a listening session on average. For me, it is no big deal and a part of the process, perhaps a few minutes total out of a 2-3 hour listening session. It is like cleaning the stylus before each play. If you think that is a "nightmare", that is fine. No one is suggesting that you change your routine. I used to not do it either until I heard the results from Doug Deacon's demonstrations. I then taught myself how to do it, what to listen for, and now it is a part of my routine.

This thread is about describing what we each do to maximize our vinyl playback, in this case adjusting VTA. It is not about suggesting that we each do it the same way or that we even adjust it for each LP. That is up to the individual listener.