Help me Grow - MM > MI > MC?

[JimTimP]

Well, I'm a newbe here, but not to Audio in general.

I've had my share of cartridges as I have been coming along. Nothing exotic or worth more than my first car (a 1978 Pontiac Sunbird with the Buick 231 V-6 engine and 4 speed - $4,400). A couple of Shures (with the V-15Mx still with me with the MR stylus and low hours), a Clear Audio Maestro v1, and now a Soundsmith Voice. Is a Moving Coil cartridge going to be such an amazing change from the Voice that I gotta get one?

Which one (let's keep it sub $4k)?

The pre-amp I currently have will allow higher gain, variable load and (while not as important) capacitance selection. Not an impressive pre, but it does work, sounds great and is still working toward that 50 hour mark where I'm hoping it'll open up just a bit more.

Oh, turntable. A VPI Prime Signature. The ADS powers it, the arm (well, I have two) is the 10-3D (one of which is the 10-3DR). Also I did splurge for the periphery clamp.

Pre is the Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 (not the older DS) and is relatively new in the US. But not Europe.

Amp is a Yaqin MS-100B. Tube are in the pre and the amp 12AX7 from JJ (actually ECC802 Gold Pins), Sylvania 6SN7s and Golden Lion KT-88s.

Speakers are kit built from Madisound from the John Krutke "Zaph" ZRT 2.5 way using ScanSpeak speakers. I did add a home made sub using a ScanSpeak Relavator 10" woofer and class A/B Plate Amp.

Cabling is made from high quality, multi-gauge, OFC and silver plated microphone cable with silicon jackets, some inside silver plated braid and sleeved. I figure if it's good enough to record with, it should be good enough for playback. Gold plated Pamona connectors, 4 Alloy (Tin/Lead/Silver/Gold) soldered. (I make a lot of my own stuff, because I can.)

Thanks, and I'm always willing to learn.

[solypsa]

Might help if you mentioned some subjective observations...what you like and what you might prefer when listening to "the voice" or other carts in your collection.

[JimTimP]

Well, I like almost everything. Classical, Jazz, classic Rock (60/70/80's and some 90's) even some modern rock. No headbanger music. I also have a love of Celtic and what was once known as 'New Age'. The female voice favors heavily in what I have and what I buy.

I can go from Bach's Solo Cello pieces to Stain'd in the same evening. If the mode directs me. Or Tori Amos and Hope Sandoval, a fine scotch and the light down real low.

Not by any means a hugh collection (I'm building it as finances allow, but you can view it here at https://cloud.collectorz.com/jimtimp/music ). And if you are looking for software to catalog your collection, PM me. This stuff is great. (not mine, but I'll tell you about it and where to get it).

[Johnny Vinyl]

I had to do a double-take as your collection is amazingy similar to mine. Kudos to you on your excellent taste!

[Joe Pittman]

Jim, I recommend you just jump into the deep end of the pond and start listening to some of the moving coils.

You can start with the Denon 103R for very little money ($250 street price). The Denon 103R is arguably one of the best phono cartridges available at that price point. Keep in mind that it has a compliance of 5cu (stiff) and wants to see a high mass arm, so adding mass to the headshell is good. It also is low output and need a high gain preamp. For a little more money, $750, I highly recommend the Charisma 103 which is a modified Denon 103 which has a sapphire cantilever, line contact stylus (not a conical like in the Denon 103R), a more compliant suspension so it tracks at 2.2g (instead of the Denon 103R's 2.5g) and has a maple body which is heavier and non-resonant. The Charisma 103 is my current go to cartridge for demonstrating high performance/high value on my VPI tables. There are MANY better sounding MC's for sure but at a MUCH higher price.

You can pick a price point and find several MC candidates. Opinion will vary, not only due to taste, but because we are talking about a system here where the overall sound is the result of all the parts. For best performance, I optimize the set-up, the arm selection, turntable, interconnects (from turntable to phono preamp), the stand, and the power system (the power cable feeding the ADS matters).

[david k]

I would go with an Ortofon SPU classic, full bodied and musical, very different flavor from your Shure and CA cartridge, not familiar with your Voice.

david

[Joe Pittman]

David, what tonearm do you recommend with the SPU?

[david k]

If you go with the GM series my number one pick is the SME 3012-R but works very well in EMT. Dynavector, FR, Ikeda, Jelco, and Ortofon arms. I have limited experience with the N series without the integrated headshell but I've heard them in a Graham Arm and a VPI JMW 10 if I recall correctly and the sound was very good but my first choice is the 3012-R in both cases.

david

[don]

Well, I'm a newbe here, but not to Audio in general.

I've had my share of cartridges as I have been coming along. Nothing exotic or worth more than my first car (a 1978 Pontiac Sunbird with the Buick 231 V-6 engine and 4 speed - $4,400). A couple of Shures (with the V-15Mx still with me with the MR stylus and low hours), a Clear Audio Maestro v1, and now a Soundsmith Voice. Is a Moving Coil cartridge going to be such an amazing change from the Voice that I gotta get one?

Which one (let's keep it sub $4k)?

The pre-amp I currently have will allow higher gain, variable load and (while not as important) capacitance selection. Not an impressive pre, but it does work, sounds great and is still working toward that 50 hour mark where I'm hoping it'll open up just a bit more.

Oh, turntable. A VPI Prime Signature. The ADS powers it, the arm (well, I have two) is the 10-3D (one of which is the 10-3DR). Also I did splurge for the periphery clamp.

Pre is the Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 (not the older DS) and is relatively new in the US. But not Europe.

Amp is a Yaqin MS-100B. Tube are in the pre and the amp 12AX7 from JJ (actually ECC802 Gold Pins), Sylvania 6SN7s and Golden Lion KT-88s.

Speakers are kit built from Madisound from the John Krutke "Zaph" ZRT 2.5 way using ScanSpeak speakers. I did add a home made sub using a ScanSpeak Relavator 10" woofer and class A/B Plate Amp.

Cabling is made from high quality, multi-gauge, OFC and silver plated microphone cable with silicon jackets, some inside silver plated braid and sleeved. I figure if it's good enough to record with, it should be good enough for playback. Gold plated Pamona connectors, 4 Alloy (Tin/Lead/Silver/Gold) soldered. (I make a lot of my own stuff, because I can.)

Thanks, and I'm always willing to learn.

Hi, IMHO a DL103 r will not touch the soundsmith voice, my DL103 r is a modified soundsmith with a ruby cantilever and contact point diamond, which is the top of the line upgrade, although it sounds very close to the soundsmith ( I also have one ). The reason is the extra gain that is needed because it is .25 mv causes more s/n ratio. I use a SUT that is 1.36 which gives it a load of 36 ohms and voltage of 4.5 mv which is a perfect match. Although it is very close to the soundsmith you will gain nothing in audible pleasure. If it were me wanting the full effect of a MC against the soundsmith I would move on to Ortofon' high end MC line, or Lyra because that is what it will take.
I also use Microphone cables for interconnects, I wire them Pseudo Balanced, the shield is not tied to the signal negative I solder a wire to the shield and attach it directly to the chassis. All of my signal negatives are direct to the amps ground plane, not the bond.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Not a criticism on the topic, but an observation that seems to imply MC is perceived as being superior and that for one to qualify as a true audiophile one needs to evolve in that direction. Now.....I have limited experience with most MC cartridges, but from those I have heard I can't say they left me convinced that a change from MI (various Grado Refs) was in order. It should be said that I'm much more interested in the quality and content of my media as opposed to the quality of my gear, and it could be assumed that I am therefore more easily pleased. But I also know what I like.

[JCOConnell]

I just read Soundsmiths thesis why fixed coil (moving iron) is superior to MC this morning on their website. So I wouldn't say MC is necessisarily better than MM or MI.

[Joe Pittman]

JC says above: "I just read Soundsmiths thesis why fixed coil (moving iron) is superior to MC this morning on their website. So I wouldn't say MC is necessarily better than MM or MI."

What most people don't know is that Joe Grado patented the moving coil in 1959. I think it is ironic that he manufactured moving iron (MI) for all of or the majority of years that Grado Labs has been in business. I can't recall exactly why, but I thought that Joe said the MI design was superior. In any event, the MI cartridges take less labor hours to produce due to the coil winding of smaller MC cartridges as far as I know, and are usually less expensive, and can have a user-replaceable stylus...

[jonathanb]

In any event, the MI cartridges take less labor hours to produce due to the coil winding of smaller MC cartridges as far as I know, and are usually less expensive, and can have a user-replaceable stylus...

Does Grado produce a MI cartridge with a replaceable stylus? I know that none of the Soundsmith MI cartridges have replaceable stylii.

[Joe Pittman]

The older Grado's had replaceable styli, but I don't know anyone who actually did replace them... Replaceable styli were important in the early days for entry level cartridges, because they were frequently damaged (bent cantilevers) or broken... High-end users are typically much more careful. Knock on wood.

[user510]

I'm sure the folks at VPI will have some suggestions regarding an MC to try out. They listen to lots of different gear and have ideas about what works on their product line. With regard to the Shure V15VxMR, lots of different, and not necessarily expensive, cartridges will better it, imo. I found it a little bit laid back for my tastes on a few different tonearms and vintage turntables I've had. And you don't have to go to MC to beat it.

-Steve

[JimTimP]

Well, I guess I need to clarify something. The subject is asking for help in growing (as in my knowledge and my system) and is a MC cartridge going to give me the overall superior reproduction given my equipment over the SoundSmith Voice MI cartridge ( and jonathanb, all Soundsmith cartridges have replaceable styli - just not user replaceable and the price is quite reasonable - check the site).

Now, I don't have the equipment (oh that sounds just sooooooo bad) some of you do. But given what I do have, and it's modest with about a total of $25K invested, will a $4k MC cartridge give me superior reproduction?

I've looked at Lyra's (seriously considered the Kleos before I bought the Voice). So I guess I'll be specific:

Is a vdH Frog, or a Shelter 9000, or similar cartridge going to blow my mind and wish I dropped acid because it would explain the feelings I'm having listening to the music (and thereby surpassing the Soundsmith Voice)?

I hear so much about MC cartridges it tends to make one believe this will happen. Is the experience commensurate with the hype?

Thank guys, and so far this has been a real learning discussion. I truly do appreciate it.

[jonathanb]

( and jonathanb, all Soundsmith cartridges have replaceable styli - just not user replaceable and the price is quite reasonable - check the site).

Soundsmith has rebuilt two cartridges for me, one a Clearaudio Accurate and the other a Symphonic Line RG-8. (They also recently repaired/refurbished my Gryphon M-100 mono-block amps and Gryphon XT preamp.) Their prices are reasonable and their work impeccable.

[JimTimP]

JC says above: "I just read Soundsmiths thesis why fixed coil (moving iron) is superior to MC this morning on their website. So I wouldn't say MC is necessarily better than MM or MI."

What most people don't know is that Joe Grado patented the moving coil in 1959. I think it is ironic that he manufactured moving iron (MI) for all of or the majority of years that Grado Labs has been in business. I can't recall exactly why, but I thought that Joe said the MI design was superior. In any event, the MI cartridges take less labor hours to produce due to the coil winding of smaller MC cartridges as far as I know, and are usually less expensive, and can have a user-replaceable stylus...

JC,

Does this mean you agree with Peter Ledermann's analysis and explanation? To be honest he was convincing enough for me to purchase his cartridge, and in all honesty (wow, this is an honest sentence) I'm very happy with it.

And Joe, same question...

[JCOConnell]

Well, I cant say Ive actually heard any MI carts so I'm not really ready to jump on the bandwagon yet

[don]

JC,

Does this mean you agree with Peter Ledermann's analysis and explanation? To be honest he was convincing enough for me to purchase his cartridge, and in all honesty (wow, this is an honest sentence) I'm very happy with it.

And Joe, same question...

JC
You may have, in the 80's all of the Stanton's were MI and a lot of the Ortofon's Were MI with replaceable stylus just like a MM, (for that reason most people think that they are MM) I have two, A Stanton 681 EEE and Ortofon VMS 20, the Stanton still has the best channel separation of any cartridge to this day, the VMS 20 rivals the DL 103 R, That being said my Ortofon MC 10 had the most upper end detail of any cartridge that I have owned, It was .09 MV so there was a lot of gain hiss to play it, the impedance was 3 ohms. After 31 years the cantilever bent and I would not consider replacing it. there are too many Great cartridges w/o the gain problem and if you never hear that upper detail, you do not miss it.

[JCOConnell]

I did have a Stanton 681EEE at one point, but I was using it with horrid equipment so tough to judge.

[Joe Pittman]

JC,

Does this mean you agree with Peter Ledermann's analysis and explanation? To be honest he was convincing enough for me to purchase his cartridge, and in all honesty (wow, this is an honest sentence) I'm very happy with it.

And Joe, same question...

I highly respect Peter Ledermann and agree with most of what he says about the fixed coil advantages. However, I don't think it accounts for everything about the whole LP playback system. Another major variable is how the arm drains energy away from the cartridge and the phono preamp integration in my opinion. There are many other factors as well. Ultimately, all of the technologies MM, MI, MC, Strain Gauge, etc, converge on the same goal of ultimate sound quality. There are good as well as bad examples for each technology. The cool thing is that LP playback has never been better. There is a lot of great vinyl available, all we really need is more time to enjoy it (play those records!).