To SUT or new Phono Stage

[Kingrex]

I broke out my old Denon 103R with Soundsmith updates as well as a Midas Aluminum head shell. I was never that intrigued through my Allnic H1201 MC input. I was talking with Fremer about this and he said he heard an Allnic do very well with a SUT feeding into the MM input. I looked around on the internet and found a Bobs Device made for my Denon for $375. I figured, why not, so I bought it. Owe boy. I spent at least a week shielding not once, but twice (2 layers) of shielding over my interconnect. Then finding the optimum placement to reduce hum and noise. Its rubber banded to the side of my rack. I have it pretty dialed in now. And I must say. Holly Cow. It's a much improved analog playback in my system. That then opens up the question, do I get a Bobs device Sky 20 for my Hana, or do I look for a whole new phono stage.

I had a SS phone here not long ago. It was more clean and dynamic than my Allnic. But it did not rock my world. It was just very nice. I really like what I am hearing with the Bobs and Allnic. But the noise is an issue. I don't hear it a low listening levels. But I get the wind in my fur like anyone else and turn it up after a drink or two. It's then that the low level hum becomes pronounced and heard.

I have considered taking the Allnic to a solder slinger and having him install a set of micro screw terminals so I could install the SUT inside my Allnic and swap the SUT when I change cartridges.

Thoughts
Rex

[JCOConnell]

forget transformer Step up , always fighting hum. try an active SS head amp instead.

[Rob]

The Bent Audio Mu was a high-water mark for me, it used S&B TX-102r hand-wound with silver wire and customizable loading using the appropriate value resistor across the binding post. The Mu case provided the ultimate in shielding. Don Slagle no longer makes them but they turn up used from time to time.

[Kingrex]

Interesting. Built in interconnect. And a very short interconnect.

[timztunz]

The Bent Audio Mu was a high-water mark for me, it used S&B TX-102r hand-wound with silver wire and customizable loading using the appropriate value resistor across the binding post. The Mu case provided the ultimate in shielding. Don Slagle no longer makes them but they turn up used from time to time.

Rob, how do they differ from what Don is making now?

[Rob]

Sorry, I have no idea. I did read somewhere S&B stopped selling their trafos to 3rd party resellers.

[kcin]

Those S&B are great transformers- I had a pair slip out of my hands.

[squasher]

forget transformer Step up , always fighting hum. try an active SS head amp instead.

A very debatable assertion.

I’ve had multiple SUTs over the years and very seldom have experienced problems.

[Slowgeezr]

I agree. Been using SUT for years, nary an issue.

[Mike Lavigne]

forget transformer Step up , always fighting hum. try an active SS head amp instead.

not my experience at all. i have both solid state phono and a tubed phono with SUT's. zero noise of any kind from the SUT. i will admit 10 years ago i had an Allnic phono and an Allnic SUT and it was noisy. but the CS Port phono with the EMIA SUT is dead quiet.

i agree that certainly some systems have noise issues with phono and SUT's; you are amplifying a very small signal and there are lots of variables.

[Kingrex]

I tried an active SS phono. It was very quiet. Very good in many ways. But that particular unit did not speak to me.

I think I might keep plugging along with the SUT and see if I cant get a better interconnect. I have my hum to a very low level when I have the volume very loud. The "rumble" from the needle on the lead in is almost more noticeable. At more normal listening levels, the SUT hum is pretty non existent. Its just been a lot of work getting to this point. But it shows it can be done. And since I don't see purchasing many cartridges, a SUT could be a nice way to go. I believe the Hana ML has the same electrical specifications as the Red so I could use the same SUT for both. And I have one for the Denon. That should last me a lot of years.

Also, another thread has me looking at the DS 003.

[Tapetech]

Are there any power transformers near the interconnect or SUT? Move them away if yes and see if that helps.

[Kingrex]

That is part of what I addressed in trying to quiet it. I moved cables around. It all helps. I think my interconnect is too long too. Anfd my shielding is only ok. I am actually thinking of using a coax interconnect. A piece about 8 inches and wiring it right into the Bob's device. Make it like the Mu.

[Tapetech]

move the power transformers away rather than re-shielding or moving the cables

[fcrowder]

I have used both and think that either can work well in the right circumstance. If you are dealing with extremely low output/low impedance cartridges, SUT’s can be a superb answer. In my case the Lyra Atlas lambda SL into an Audio Note S9M into an Audio Note tubes phonostage…no hum or noise, excellent top end and bass extension but ANUK custom wound the SUT for the cartridge.

[Kingrex]

It's down here on the leg of my stand. I spent more time reciently moving other power and interconnect that impact the whole. I actually spent the last couple days changing the crossover to driver wires that really shut noise down.
Adding 2 layer of mylar over the interconnect was 70% of the noise reduction. 25% was where the cables routed and the SUT landed. 5% was other stuff around it.

[groovemaster]

forget transformer Step up , always fighting hum. try an active SS head amp instead.

Last week I heard how well a step up transformer works with a solid state phono amplifier from my friend Bernd.

A Phasemation T-550 transformer on the AS Phonolab PRO phono stage. Audiospecials has given their MM input a special feature. It has not only the 47K Ohm standard input impedance but 6 more impedances. 100K, 32K, 24K,20K, 16K and 14 K. He now operates his Ortofon SPU with the 14 K setting, which gives him the low input impedance of 35 ohms for his SPU. With 47K, that's 117.5 ohms. Too much for the SPU. Harsh sound.

The 14K literally gave the SPU wings in terms of sound. More CSE ( Colour, Stage, Emotion). The Phasemation has 1:20 (26 dB) amplification, which fits perfectly. It uses the SPU 1#E. As an architect, Bernd rather appreciates the purist design line, which fits perfectly into his flat. I like this very much.



groovemaster

[McD275]

I like it the old fashioned way.
Having a tube preamp with a MM input, I decided to use a SUT for my Ortofon SPU Wood A .
In the past the Ortofon ST-7 was doing a great job but its predecessor ,the Sculpture A Mini Nano step up, sounds definitely better. Also no problem at all of noise and hum.

For my vintage system the increase in sound quality by this small SUT is sufficient enough to stop searching for more. Highly reommended.

[GregSwaim]

Not to be rude here but it seems that you've tweaked both your turntable & phono stage to death. Maybe it's time to start over with a new TT and phono stage? 🤔

Most phono stages, like most preamps, are more hype than product these days. I auditioned more preamps than common sense allows( priced between $4K - 45K) before I found one that actually did something useful & meaningful in the way of sonic improvements - just saying.

I tried out a Allnic tube preamp with my McIntosh 2102 once and it did nothing to improve the sound, however a Conrad Johnson tube preamp did much to improve the sound to my tube system. CJ offers 2 different tube phono stages currently. If you're into tubes for records & tape maybe one of these are for you.

I use a EAR Yoshino 324 solid state phono with my Linn Sondek LPSE Klimax. It mates well and is sonically better to my ears than the Linn internally mounted phono stage. I prefer solid state for LP's & tape.
The EAR is very flexible too, has a mono switch, can accommodate 2 turntables( 1 MM, 1 MC), and has settings for multiple loadings.
I don't know if it is still being produced or not but it's definitely worth checking out if you like solid state for a phono stage.

SPL also makes a interesting stand alone solid state phono stage and a solid state preamp combo that incorporates that stand alone phono stage. I've not tried it out but if I were looking for a replacement that one would be at the top of my list for a audition.

Just my opinions.

[kcin]

SUTs solve many problems for designers. It is difficult to manufacture a low noise compelling active phono stage. If you can manage that- it will be expensive and it will mostly be SS FET input- which "can" sound very good.

Don't quote me , however, I believe that even Ralph Karsten of Atmasphere used to, or on request, include a SUT in his marvelous MP1 2 box and has said now that his preference is no SUT at all. I agree.

Now its not to say you can't get outstanding performance with a SUT- you may be able to. I run the Io 3 box and it is all active, there are compromises to both approaches.

When you introduce SUTs you must do the math, dress leads properly and find that "perfect" match for your chosen cartridge. It adds complexity. The good thing with SUTs is that you can get in inexpensively and the problem with SUTs is that you can get in inexpensively

The Bobs devices SUTs are great value, they also have to be placed properly with the correct shielded cable- or they will hum- check around.

Having said all that I continue to experiment with SUTs for fun... one of the most compelling is the Luxman 8020 series from the early 80s with silver wire toroid. Fabulous ! The other one that always seems to work well and is really good sounding is the EAR MC4 check around. I have also built in SUTs from Sowter into my projects.

Custom SUTs from Emnia or one of the best I heard is the Expressive Technologies are at the top of the heap. Location of your SUT, its construction or cables may be contributing to your hum. You must take a systematic approach to tracking it down.

When you choose a SUT you best make sure its with the cartridge you want to live with- because SUTs are one area where you get what you pay for.

Good luck

[jeffk]

I have used a Ypsilon MC16 with my Lamm LP2 D and now my VPS100 which requires a sut for LOMC's. The SUT externally including connections and cabling still smoked the internal Jensen in the Lamm. I used a TP MC4 before the Ypsilon relatively substandard if you can believe it.