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Multiple Tonearms Setup on Single Turntable and Ease of Use

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  • Multiple Tonearms Setup on Single Turntable and Ease of Use

    I've just entered this world. I'm curious to know from those of you who have multiple arms set up on a single turntable what your preferred arrangement is. Because I have the ability to locate the arms pretty much anywhere around the circumference of the platter, rather than being constrained by defined position points for outrigger mounts, my main issues are ease of use and secondarily, ease of set up. I've already tried two positions- basically the same but swapping the arms in each position. The biggest issue right now, for the arm facing backwards, is simply stylus cleaning.* One constraint is balance on the Minus K. It seems ideal to have the arms mounted opposite each other, given the weight of the arm pods and the Minus K. I could theoretically reposition the turntable itself so the motors, rather than being on an East-West axis, are on a North-South axis. That would give me a little more room for positioning so I don't have to work around the motors. (I know if and when I upgrade to the DC motor, it will eliminate one motor pod, but give me time on that one. I'm an aging pensioner living on my investments). The other constraint is the position of the table against a back wall.

    I'm curious to know what each of you who run multiple arms on the same table chose, and why. My Airtight Supreme has not come back from Soundsmith, but I figured I'd give this a dry run using that Monster Alpha and it actually sounds better in the 4 Point 9 than in the Airline. The opposite seemed to be true with the Koetsu, but I didn't spend enough time messing around with VTA settings to reach a hard and fast conclusion on that one- there seems to be a real synergy with the stone Koetsu in the Airline arm.
    *One obvious constraint that you may not suffer from is that my turntable backs up to a wall so I can't get around to the back of it easily.
    Here's a cookie for your comments:

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  • #2

    Stunning set up..I had an Airline for a long while on a Verdier. Awesome arm.. I tried 2 arms for a while on the single table sporting a Miyajima Kansui and Zero. Giant pain in the ass..Set up was a nightmare if not impossible. Playback using 2nd arm was also an ass whip...I purchased a second vintage table for the ZERO. Now life is good!
    Primary 2 channel stuff: Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk 3.3, Pass Labs X600.5 amps, Eminent Technology LFT VI speakers, Aerial SW 12 subs, True Sound Works Ultimate Apogee Divas, VPI Mag Drive / Rim Drive HRX w Avenger Reference footers, 2 - 12" VPI 3DR tonearms, 1 - 12" VPI Stainless Steel tonearm, Miyajima Kansui, Miyajima ZERO, Fidelity Research MC-201 & 202, VPI ADS, Vendetta Research SCP-1, Truth Mod OPPO 105, Western Electric Speaker wire, DIY & Discovery interconnects, Furutech Power Cords

    Comment


    • Bill Hart
      Bill Hart commented
      Editing a comment
      The Verdier is a classic, not much seen here in the States... at least by me.
      Yeah, I have another table, but bringing that up to the main system would add even more space problems in terms of layout.
      Oh, well...
      thanks for input there LMAD!

  • #3
    In my case i don't have a wall behind just a easy to move sofa...Click image for larger version

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    SEAS EXCEL DIY Speakers; CJ Premier 12; CJ Premier 14; CJ Premier EV1; Accuphase DP 85; MAC Airbook + Audionirvana plus+ Qobuz + Tidal; Micro Seiki RX 1500; Ikeda IT 407 12" + Ortofon MC A95; Thomas Schick 12" + Ortofon SPU 90th Anniversary; Fidelity Research FR64 FX 10" + Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII; SME M2 12-R + Ortofon MC XPRESSION; Kenwood KD 7010 + Ortofon Jubilee; Revox B710; Revox A77; Revox PR99; Pure Silver DIY Cables; Sennheiser HD800; Sennheiser HDVD 800; Akai AT S-08 Tuner.

    Comment


    • Bill Hart
      Bill Hart commented
      Editing a comment
      Well, you went overboard! or just well armed. Nice set up! Thanks for your input.

  • #4
    I like one arm

    Comment


    • Rob
      Rob commented
      Editing a comment
      after all you can only use 'em one at a time my LP12 can only handle one so I added a second LP12...having a 2nd table isnt practical for many but has benefits superior to one table w/mult arms.

  • #5
    My setup has three arms and I have access from every side. Until I did that, more that two arms was very hard to setup the third, and even the second was a challenge where it was before my current spot. Click image for larger version

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    My suggestion is to put the arm where you can setup the cart easily and see it dropping into the groove.

    Comment


    • #6
      Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
      I've just entered this world. I'm curious to know from those of you who have multiple arms set up on a single turntable what your preferred arrangement is. Because I have the ability to locate the arms pretty much anywhere around the circumference of the platter, rather than being constrained by defined position points for outrigger mounts, my main issues are ease of use and secondarily, ease of set up. I've already tried two positions- basically the same but swapping the arms in each position. The biggest issue right now, for the arm facing backwards, is simply stylus cleaning.* One constraint is balance on the Minus K. It seems ideal to have the arms mounted opposite each other, given the weight of the arm pods and the Minus K. I could theoretically reposition the turntable itself so the motors, rather than being on an East-West axis, are on a North-South axis. That would give me a little more room for positioning so I don't have to work around the motors. (I know if and when I upgrade to the DC motor, it will eliminate one motor pod, but give me time on that one. I'm an aging pensioner living on my investments). The other constraint is the position of the table against a back wall.

      I'm curious to know what each of you who run multiple arms on the same table chose, and why. My Airtight Supreme has not come back from Soundsmith, but I figured I'd give this a dry run using that Monster Alpha and it actually sounds better in the 4 Point 9 than in the Airline. The opposite seemed to be true with the Koetsu, but I didn't spend enough time messing around with VTA settings to reach a hard and fast conclusion on that one- there seems to be a real synergy with the stone Koetsu in the Airline arm.
      *One obvious constraint that you may not suffer from is that my turntable backs up to a wall so I can't get around to the back of it easily.
      Here's a cookie for your comments:

      Click image for larger version Name:	DSCF0870.jpg Views:	0 Size:	397.8 KB ID:	112603
      That is one gorgeous table. Your minus K is constraining you with the balance issue. Otherwise you could flip the 4 point to 10 o' clock pointing East and you are set like mine. Can you add ballast and do that?

      With the Brinkmann I can switch arm pods easily pre loaded with the another arm not nearly as substantial as your Kuzma though!

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      Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
      Brinkmann La Grange & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point ,FR64S, Brinkmann 12.1 , Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
      Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
      Pre-Amps: ARC SP 3a, Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
      Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2

      Comment


      • #7
        Originally posted by kcin View Post

        That is one gorgeous table. Your minus K is constraining you with the balance issue. Otherwise you could flip the 4 point to 10 o' clock pointing East and you are set like mine. Can you add ballast and do that?

        With the Brinkmann I can switch arm pods easily pre loaded with the another arm not nearly as substantial as your Kuzma though!

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        Nick- one of my potential alternatives is to do the Airline at around 10:30 facing east and the 4 Point at about 4:30. (The motor pods are at 9 and 3 so I'm working on 1/2 hour increments around the face- 10 might be a little close to the motor, but we can try). I think that would give me access to the front of both arms- the downside is, I won't be able to see the air pressure gauge on the Airline, which is just a precaution to make sure I still have pressure.
        Another scenario is to reverse that set up and put the Airline at 4.30 and the 4 Point at 10.30--the arm pods, while virtually identical, are not-- one is adjustable for height, thus has the 4 Point mounted on it to make setting VTA easier. (The Airline has the VTA on the fly adjustment as part of the arm so the fixed arm tower works fine with that).
        Your table looks great.
        PS: I realized I didn't address your question re adding ballast. Right now I'm still well within the specs of the load for this Minus K as configured. But with the additional weight of the HRS and a second arm pod, I think adding yet another 30 lbs would put me over. I do have a thirty lb kettle bell here.
        Last edited by Bill Hart; 04-13-2019, 08:32 PM.

        Comment


        • Rob
          Rob commented
          Editing a comment
          Bill, does your Minus-K care if you have mass placed asymmetrically on your HRS platform? I would think this would somewhat dictate where the pods can go.

        • Bill Hart
          Bill Hart commented
          Editing a comment
          Rob, when i had only one arm, it was a bit asymmetrical in the sense that the arm pod added 30 lbs only at one place outside the orbit of the turntable itself. I had compensated for that by placing the turntable base a little off center to get it balanced. But, my sense is the Minus K does like symmetry-- it usually calls for placing whatever instrument is being used dead center. It would probably work if the load wasn't balanced, but not ideal. Thus, the idea of putting the arm pods opposite each other somewhere around the 'clock face' in the parlance I'm using. That still leaves me with some of the options described above.
          I also thought about reorienting the whole thing- including the Minus K and its stand-- 90 degrees but that wouldn't necessarily give me more flexibility and would add to complications regarding the phono stage, which is installed between the legs of the stand.

      • #8
        I have two arms, but I use two tables....
        Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Shelter 501 Mark II Cart (St) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (St) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (St) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (M) , Luxman Tonearm (M) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (M) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Teac A3300SX R2R, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, DIY Silver Interconnects

        Comment


        • #9
          Click image for larger version  Name:	Kuzma2arms.jpg Views:	0 Size:	4.10 MB ID:	113314 After some helpful input from Scot Markwell on arm behavior, mainly the effect of adding the second arm and pod on balancing the Airline (linear tracker) on the floating isolation platform, I decided to call Minus K. Those guys are, like real engineers 'n stuff.
          Turns out, there's a way to remove the top plate of the Minus K and rearrange the contact points of the "tilt pad" that comes in contact with the negative stiffness spring- by spreading them out more (for more widespread mass) or even positioning them for off center loads. I did that, and reassembled everything, putting the 4Pt9 in a better location (consistent with Nick's suggestion), then went through arm adjustments all over again. (Got my morning work out just lifting, removing, lifting and replacing some of the turntable parts- some heavy stuff that required gentle placement, so core strength and balance were key!). Anyway, the Airline is soooo sensitive to what it needs to see as 'level' and i finally got it there (the overhang is easy as is zenith) and the settings on the 4 Point were already pretty dead on, but everything got checked once that arm got repositioned. I can now actually clean the stylus on cartridge mounted on the 4 Pt. So, just played a couple records using each arm to watch and listen to arm behavior--- and now may actually be able to listen rather than play turntable mechanic. I've learned something from this adventure. I wonder if most set up guys would be familiar with the interplay between the Minus K and the Airline in terms of balance and mass loading. I may now be like Irwin Corey. Here's a photo for your trouble - thanks for reading.

          Comment


          • Rob
            Rob commented
            Editing a comment
            Good to know the Minus K is adjustable for off-center loads. I also noticed an HRS weight in lieu of Kuzma's clamp and what are your initial impressions of the 4 pt vs the Airline?
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