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  • Vpi 3d

    what does everybody think of the 3D arm? Is the sonic upgrade worth the money?

  • #2
    Yes and maybe yes.

    1. The new 3D arm is an upgrade over the earlier metal arm though may need to be a little more careful with cartridge selection. Cleaner, more detailed, better staging and bass. One does have to be a little more cautious when using the arm though. In other words, you can't crank down when tightening the cartridge screws (audiophiles always think that if a little bit is good, more is always better) or you can crack the plastic arm. Also it's just a little more of a PITA to set VTF/Azimuth because the counterweight tends to be a little tighter.

    2. There is now the dual pivot version of the 3D arm that should be here momentarily. According to Harry, it combines the solidity of a gymballed arm with the airiness of a unipivot. It that's the case....
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

    Comment


    • #3
      The dual pivot is to be a user installed modification so there's no need to hold back on acquiring a 3D arm waiting for this mod.
      Analog: Holbo Turntable, Transfiguration Proteus; Forsell Air Reference, Transfiguration Phoenix S; Rega RP-8, VdH Crimson XGW; VPI Prime Signature, VAS Nova Mono, VAS Nova Signature, Symphonic Line RG-8
      Digital: Mac mini 6,2 with YFS PS-12M LPS; Exogal Comet Plus, Exogal Ion PowerDAC
      Electronics: Aurorasound Vida, Channel D Lino C; Merrill Cara, Gryphon M-100 Mkii (pair)
      Cables: Morrow, Gryphon interconnects; YFS USB cable; Morrow, XLO, Channel D phono cables; Morrow, Gryphon, Goertz speaker cables

      Comment


      • MylesBAstor
        MylesBAstor commented
        Editing a comment
        Harry, Mat and I talked recently and the dual pivot will be standard. Yes current 3D arm users can update their arms but I'll wait since there's a possibility of damaging the plastic arm during installation too. VPI is getting caught up on dual pivot production and reckon once Xmas season is over, the new arm will be in plentiful supply.

    • #4
      Wow, things change fast at VPI! Here's Harry on the VPI Forum: Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2016-12-19 10.57.52.png Views:	1 Size:	44.4 KB ID:	36234

      When I was at VPI a couple of weeks ago, they didn't mention that the 3D arms would include the 2nd pivot point in the near future. Now, I kinda want them to swap the arm on my Prime Signature for one of those with the 2nd pivot point…even if I have to go through the horror of setting up my Phoenix S again.
      Analog: Holbo Turntable, Transfiguration Proteus; Forsell Air Reference, Transfiguration Phoenix S; Rega RP-8, VdH Crimson XGW; VPI Prime Signature, VAS Nova Mono, VAS Nova Signature, Symphonic Line RG-8
      Digital: Mac mini 6,2 with YFS PS-12M LPS; Exogal Comet Plus, Exogal Ion PowerDAC
      Electronics: Aurorasound Vida, Channel D Lino C; Merrill Cara, Gryphon M-100 Mkii (pair)
      Cables: Morrow, Gryphon interconnects; YFS USB cable; Morrow, XLO, Channel D phono cables; Morrow, Gryphon, Goertz speaker cables

      Comment


    • #5
      Originally posted by jonathanb View Post
      When I was at VPI a couple of weeks ago, they didn't mention that the 3D arms would include the 2nd pivot point in the near future. Now, I kinda want them to swap the arm on my Prime Signature for one of those with the 2nd pivot point…even if I have to go through the horror of setting up my Phoenix S again.
      My dual pivot came with the UPS delivery 50 minutes ago. I've already got it set up with the Proteus Diamond and spinning to run-in the tonearm wires for CES. Very bright because of the new wires, but the bass and image solidity are significantly better already.
      Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer
      Genesis Advanced Technologies, Inc.
      www.genesisloudspeakers.com

      Comment


      • #6
        Hmm.
        Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

          2. There is now the dual pivot version of the 3D arm that should be here momentarily. According to Harry, it combines the solidity of a gymballed arm with the airiness of a unipivot. It that's the case....
          in what sense does this improved "solidity" translate to better tracking if the 2nd pivot on the VPI is not frictionless (in simplistic terms: a pointed bearing scraping along a pad). I like Graham's solution for the phantom using magnets, it's more elegant not too mention less obtrusive and can be used to adjust azimuth on the fly.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXv_0l2scc
          TechDAS | Graham Eng | ZYX | B.M.C. | Boulder | Magico

          "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

          Comment


          • Rob
            Rob commented
            Editing a comment
            Dre, knock on wood I haven't broken a cart yet!

          • Rob
            Rob commented
            Editing a comment
            Myles, the anti-skate thought came to me too. there has to be a resistance acting on the stylus w/VPIs design. I used to have a JMW 10.5 the version before they used the opposing side weights and I never thought the "wobble" was an issue, neither on the Graham 2.2 that was prone to it. Its an issue on some suspended 'tables but VPI no longer makes those, and the ones they did were stiffly sprung anyway.

          • MylesBAstor
            MylesBAstor commented
            Editing a comment
            Harry and I have been talking about his arm designs, particularly what I heard and really liked about the SAT arm. The SAT is very special and what impressed me most was its solidity, naturalness, smoothness and resolution of information. Perhaps most of all, the arm's naturalness. No trace of artificiality. The SAT arm took for instance the Harry Belafonte Carnegie Hall recordings to a new level.

            He has been working on own version of a gimballed arm. He and Mat both feel the newest version of the 3D arm is the best of both worlds. Mikey heard the dual pivot and was very impressed. Remember he uses the SAT arm too as a reference and also spoke to me about how this arm was just at a different level. I know if Inhad that type of change around, the SAT would definitely be on my short list.

            I dunno. The more things change, the more the stay the same. DD was out, now it's in. Ball/race bearings were out, now they're in vogue again.

        • #8
          Glad I asked. Thanks guys!

          Comment


          • #9
            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2824.JPG Views:	1 Size:	3.40 MB ID:	36654
            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2822.JPG Views:	1 Size:	3.61 MB ID:	36653

            So here's the new dual pivot VPI 3D arm recently arrived. Will burn-in the wire and get to reviewing the new arm.
            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
            -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
            -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

            Comment


            • Rob
              Rob commented
              Editing a comment
              I dunno, still looks Flinstonian to me of the dual pivot designs that have impressed me--with metal-on-metal contact--the Basis Vector was the most ingenious using a ball/race bearing located in the base of the unipivots upright - really outta the box type thinking. with AJ's design the bearing can be of very high spec (ceramic, ABEC 9, etc). the proof was in the pudding, the Vector is a great sounding arm.

          • #10
            I had first seen this dual pivot concept in the Spotheim La Luce turntable SpJ tonearm and felt that this is what is needed to stabilize uni-pivot arms (slight bias force to one side and sliding bearing surface). Joel Durand's arms now have a similar concept where a cantilever arm slides along a rod. Although the Durand approach is more complicated and expensive, I suspect it is superior in it's low sliding friction and rigidity (use of sapphire sliding on sapphire).
            Speakers/Amps: Genesis G2.2 Jr with Powered Servo-Sub Bass, Genesis GR1440 Mono Amps, 5,000 watts total power
            Preamp: SMc Audio VRE-1C Preamp (fully balanced inputs and output)
            Phono 1: VPI Signature 21 Belt-Drive Turntable with 10” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Windfeld Ti Phono Cartridge driving Lehmann Decade Phono Preamp
            Phono 2: VPI HW-40 Direct-Drive Turntable with 12” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Anna Diamond Phono Cartridge driving Genesis Gold Phono Preamp
            R2R Tape: Studer A810 with Bridge Console
            Digital: Lumin Network Player with Lumin NAS
            Cables: Genesis Advanced Technologies/Absolute Fidelity Interface Interconnects, Speaker, Phono and Power
            Power: Audio-Ultra Power System, IsoTek Super Titan Passive Power Conditioning for Amplifiers
            Accessories: Custom Acrylic Equipment Stands, Klaudio Ultrasonic RCM

            Comment


            • #11
              The problem with sliding friction is that static friction is usually higher than dynamic friction no matter what two materials you use. So, the result you have with the arm movement is fly - stick - fly - stick - fly - stick due to the compliance of the cantilever. Albeit minute, it is still significant with respect to the magnitude of the groove wall modulations.

              There are certain materials that will mitigate the difference, but then we are talking about synthetic gems on ceramic. Nevertheless, with a couple of days experience with the VPI 3D arm under my belt on the direct-drive Vanquish, with careful adjustment, you can get barely any down-force on the second pivot, and hence barely any friction.
              Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer
              Genesis Advanced Technologies, Inc.
              www.genesisloudspeakers.com

              Comment


              • #12
                Do you guys use Antiskate with your 3D arms ( with or without the dual pivot)?... I have listened carefully with the the a/s in play, and then flipped it over to not exert its force, and for me, every time I compare, I come away the no a/s provides better sound....centered soloists are clearly centered, more air, more depth. ..just wondering.

                Comment


                • #13
                  Mine is also set to zero. My set up guy, Stirling Trayle, chose the setting. Not sure, but I think he prefers the zero setting for VPI arms. I have the 3 D 10.5 arm on my Classic 3. Going to be asking him about the dual pivot.

                  Larry
                  Analog- VPIClassic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeroMono, 2xAmpex ATR-102,Doshi3.0,Merrill Trident Master Tape Pre,Herron VTPH-2A
                  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,Mykerinos,PacMicroModel2
                  Dig Play-mchNADAC, LampiPac, Roon, HQP, Oppo105
                  Electronics-Doshi Pre,CJ MET1mchPre, Cary2A3monoamps
                  Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
                  Other-2x512Engineer/Marutani Symmetrical Power, AudioDiskVinylCleaner,AirTightRecordFlat, Scott Rust Interconnects,
                  Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.3KR2Rtapes,50TBrips

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    Same here, no AS on the normal pivot arm (still haven't installed the dual pivot arm yet). I find that the music sounds constricted with the AS engaged.
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #15
                      Got me one. Sounds great!

                      Comment

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