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VPI 3D Dual Pivot Conversion Kit
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VPI 3D Dual Pivot Conversion Kit
Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.Tags: None
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Myles, are you doing a review on it or just for your own personal use? Would love to hear your thoughts, if possible.
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Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.
- Likes 1
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Ok, fine…I'll admit it:
I'm jealous.Analog: Holbo Turntable, VdH Crimson Strad XGW; Forsell Air Reference, Transfiguration Proteus; Rega RP-8, VAS Nova Mono
Digital: Mac mini 6,2 with YFS PS-12M LPS; Exogal Comet Plus, Exogal Ion PowerDAC
Electronics: Aurorasound Vida, Channel D Lino C; Merrill Cara, Gryphon M-100 Mkii (pair)
Cables: Morrow, Gryphon interconnects; YFS USB cable; Morrow, XLO, Channel D phono cables; Morrow, Gryphon, Goertz speaker cables
Comment
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Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Postso, the apparatus attached to the balance weight collar (attached pic) is the "2nd bearing" that rides on a 'thrust pad' of sorts. Is the azimuth now adjusted via the grub screw I see protruding topside and did the addition of the "apparatus" and its attendant weight require re-adjustment of the static side to side balance? I'm still struggling with the idea of a 2nd bearing and how it would improve the sound of the JMW 'arm based on it being a true unipivot.
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Originally posted by Rob View PostI'm still struggling with the idea of a 2nd bearing and how it would improve the sound of the JMW 'arm based on it being a true unipivot.
The new dual pivot mechanism is very clever in its simplicity, ability to be retrofitted to existing arms, user installation and exceptionally low cost of $150 retail.Speakers/Amps: Genesis G2.2 Jr with Powered Servo-Sub Bass, Genesis GR1440 Mono Amps, 5,000 watts total power
Preamp: SMc Audio VRE-1C Preamp (fully balanced inputs and output)
Analog 1: VPI Signature 21 Belt-Drive Turntable w/ 10” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Windfeld Ti Phono Cartridge driving Lehmann Silver Cube Phono Preamp
Analog 2: VPI HW-40 Direct-Drive Turntable w/ 12” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Anna Diamond Phono Cartridge driving Genesis Gold Phono Preamp
Analog 3: Studer A810 R2R tape w/ Bridge Console. Using built-in tape preamp
Digital: Lumin Network Player with Lumin NAS
Cables: Genesis Advanced Technologies/Absolute Fidelity Interface Interconnects, Speaker, Phono and Power
A/C Power: Extensive System Upgrades, Sub-panel w/hard-wired power cables, and IsoTek Super Titan Passive Power Conditioning for Amplifiers
Accessories: Custom Acrylic Equipment Stands, Klaudio Ultrasonic RCM
- Likes 2
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Originally posted by Rob View Post
if a picture is worth a 1000 words then its also worth at least a few questionsso, the apparatus attached to the balance weight collar (attached pic) is the "2nd bearing" that rides on a 'thrust pad' of sorts. Is the azimuth now adjusted via the grub screw I see protruding topside and did the addition of the "apparatus"
and its attendant weight require re-adjustment of the static side to side balance?
I'm still struggling with the idea of a 2nd bearing and how it would improve the sound of the JMW 'arm based on it being a true unipivot.
I'm just did a rough setup tonight and will fine tune tomorrow. But so far definitely crazy huge soundstage, more solid imaging and bass. Also seems to have better resolution.Will need to redial in to make any sort of judgement.
But it once I play with it I'll get more info. I don't like to have the technical clouding the listening experience. Sometimes it's good to see if what hear correlates with the technical side of things.Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.
- Likes 2
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the vector uses a 2nd radial bearing on its axis, it's an unusual approach that works very well. The Centroid is different than the RPM-2, which I have owned and that arm is very similar to the vector (it actually pre-dates the vector) in that the pivot base sits in a recessed well that can be run dry (no damping) or filled with fluid, Allen recommends Mobil 1, 5W instead of silicone fluids.
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Ok I see upon further reflection what you are getting at. I just visualized needed to extend screw until just contacted the thrust plate. But I will check on that.
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I see upon further research that Basis and Continuum both use dual pivot designs.
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Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
As I mentioned in a previous thread, the dual pivot design is similar to the Spotheim SpJ tonearm, where a unipivot is supplemented by a secondary pivot point which slides on a thrust plate. The secondary pivot point prevents any side-to-side teeter-totter motion, the achilles heel of uni-pivots. In addition, the secondary pivot also allows precise azimuth adjustment. The SpJ arm was different in that the secondary pivot was fixed at the arm and the thrust plate had adjustable height which allowed azimuth adjustment on the fly.
The new dual pivot mechanism is very clever in its simplicity, ability to be retrofitted to existing arms, user installation and exceptionally low cost of $150 retail.
What I really would like to see up close is Judy's solution that you described, I have a feeling its more elegant than VPI's approach.
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Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
As I mentioned in a previous thread, the dual pivot design is similar to the Spotheim SpJ tonearm, where a unipivot is supplemented by a secondary pivot point which slides on a thrust plate. The secondary pivot point prevents any side-to-side teeter-totter motion, the achilles heel of uni-pivots. In addition, the secondary pivot also allows precise azimuth adjustment. The SpJ arm was different in that the secondary pivot was fixed at the arm and the thrust plate had adjustable height which allowed azimuth adjustment on the fly.
The new dual pivot mechanism is very clever in its simplicity, ability to be retrofitted to existing arms, user installation and exceptionally low cost of $150 retail.
Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.
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I should add that the goal of ANY bearing, in addition to zero friction, is absolute rigidity. I have always liked gimbaled ball bearings for their high degree of rigidity. The SAT arms goal was stiffness/rigidity if I understand correctly.
Joel Durrands latest arm, which is a uni-pivot, also uses a dual pivot concept, but instead has two sapphire rods that slide against each other. This design is hard to beat due to the hardness and low friction of the sapphire-to-sapphire sliding contact, however, it is wacky expensive. I think VPI's new dual pivot can be tweaked to improve it's performance without a lot of cost.Speakers/Amps: Genesis G2.2 Jr with Powered Servo-Sub Bass, Genesis GR1440 Mono Amps, 5,000 watts total power
Preamp: SMc Audio VRE-1C Preamp (fully balanced inputs and output)
Analog 1: VPI Signature 21 Belt-Drive Turntable w/ 10” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Windfeld Ti Phono Cartridge driving Lehmann Silver Cube Phono Preamp
Analog 2: VPI HW-40 Direct-Drive Turntable w/ 12” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Anna Diamond Phono Cartridge driving Genesis Gold Phono Preamp
Analog 3: Studer A810 R2R tape w/ Bridge Console. Using built-in tape preamp
Digital: Lumin Network Player with Lumin NAS
Cables: Genesis Advanced Technologies/Absolute Fidelity Interface Interconnects, Speaker, Phono and Power
A/C Power: Extensive System Upgrades, Sub-panel w/hard-wired power cables, and IsoTek Super Titan Passive Power Conditioning for Amplifiers
Accessories: Custom Acrylic Equipment Stands, Klaudio Ultrasonic RCM
- Likes 1
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Thanks, Myles. So for my Classic 3, I have two wands - one for my stereo cartridge and one for the mono. Do I need two kits, one for each wand? Also do you get the kit directly from VPI or through their parts distributor Music Direct or any retailer? LarryAnalog- VPIClassic3-3DArm,Lyra Skala+MiyajimaZeroMono, 2xAmpex ATR-102,Otari MX5050B2,Merrill Trident Master Tape Pre,Herron VTPH-2A
Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,Mykerinos,PacMicroModel2
Dig Play-mchNADAC, LampiPac, Roon, HQP, Oppo105
Electronics-Doshi Pre,CJ MET1mchPre, Cary2A3monoamps
Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
Other-2x512Engineer/Marutani Symmetrical Power, AudioDiskVinylCleaner,AirTightRecordFlat, Scott Rust Interconnects,
Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.7KR2Rtapes,50TBrips
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Yes, at this time you'd need to buy two kits. While you'll need only one skate plate, you can't buy the clamps and plates separately yet. VPI has told me they are only selling complete kits at this time as demand for the dual pivot kit far exceeds supply.Analog: Holbo Turntable, VdH Crimson Strad XGW; Forsell Air Reference, Transfiguration Proteus; Rega RP-8, VAS Nova Mono
Digital: Mac mini 6,2 with YFS PS-12M LPS; Exogal Comet Plus, Exogal Ion PowerDAC
Electronics: Aurorasound Vida, Channel D Lino C; Merrill Cara, Gryphon M-100 Mkii (pair)
Cables: Morrow, Gryphon interconnects; YFS USB cable; Morrow, XLO, Channel D phono cables; Morrow, Gryphon, Goertz speaker cables
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A few months ago when I asked a dealer about a 3D arm I was told that I'd have to send my table to VPI to do the upgrade. There apparently is a part change that is needed. Does the same go if I want to use the 3D arm as a dual pivot? Anybody know?
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Originally posted by Asamel View PostA few months ago when I asked a dealer about a 3D arm I was told that I'd have to send my table to VPI to do the upgrade. There apparently is a part change that is needed. Does the same go if I want to use the 3D arm as a dual pivot? Anybody know?
Speakers/Amps: Genesis G2.2 Jr with Powered Servo-Sub Bass, Genesis GR1440 Mono Amps, 5,000 watts total power
Preamp: SMc Audio VRE-1C Preamp (fully balanced inputs and output)
Analog 1: VPI Signature 21 Belt-Drive Turntable w/ 10” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Windfeld Ti Phono Cartridge driving Lehmann Silver Cube Phono Preamp
Analog 2: VPI HW-40 Direct-Drive Turntable w/ 12” 3D Printed Fatboy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Anna Diamond Phono Cartridge driving Genesis Gold Phono Preamp
Analog 3: Studer A810 R2R tape w/ Bridge Console. Using built-in tape preamp
Digital: Lumin Network Player with Lumin NAS
Cables: Genesis Advanced Technologies/Absolute Fidelity Interface Interconnects, Speaker, Phono and Power
A/C Power: Extensive System Upgrades, Sub-panel w/hard-wired power cables, and IsoTek Super Titan Passive Power Conditioning for Amplifiers
Accessories: Custom Acrylic Equipment Stands, Klaudio Ultrasonic RCM
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Miles you (or some other poster) alluded to the stabilization of the arm via the dual pivot as a stabilization similar to the results that damping would have. In MY experiences, damping was very critical to the cartridge I was using...too much closed in/muddied the sound....but there was a magic point where it was helpful (at least on the metal VPI 10.5 arm that I had), using the Benz Ebony LP cart. Is there a similar too much/not enough adjustment with the Dual Pivot?
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I never liked damping in the arms I tried. But this does not sound at all like damping. Damping no matter what I did say in the old ET, VPI or Graham always killed the sound. Lopped off the upper octaves and just smoothed things out too much.
And yes but I will discuss that after some more experimenting and making sure I am doing things correctly. I saw the update at VPI's, discussed the setup over the phone with Mat but the the instructions weren't quite ready yet. So just want to double check did everything correctly. Just want to add don't do what Mikey talked about in his review because this kit is different than what he reviewed. Andre and I discussed some things tonight and he astutely pointed out that the weight of the dual pivot piece that attached to the collar under the pivot probably adds enough mass to keep the pivot in contact with the thrust plate. That is in contrast to the version Mikey reviewed and I have here too where the pivot is mounted directly in the collar and need to adjust the CW so arm tips to that side to "preload" the dual pivot.Hope that makes sense.
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