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VPI 3D Dual Pivot Conversion Kit

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  • #16
    I would like to try this. I had to fiddle with the height of the adjustment screw on the arm that has the cup the unipivot point fits into in order to minimize the rocking on one of my VPI wands.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by curbfeeler View Post
      I would like to try this. I had to fiddle with the height of the adjustment screw on the arm that has the cup the unipivot point fits into in order to minimize the rocking on one of my VPI wands.
      Yes and sometimes you have to adjust that screw so the arm lift works properly.
      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
      ________________________________________

      -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
      -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
      -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Asamel View Post
        A few months ago when I asked a dealer about a 3D arm I was told that I'd have to send my table to VPI to do the upgrade. There apparently is a part change that is needed. Does the same go if I want to use the 3D arm as a dual pivot? Anybody know?
        No the new kit allows the end user to do the mod. Setup takes a couple of minutes and then maybe ten minutes to set the arm up. I will talk further about this later but the dual pivot can be tuned for optimal sound.
        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
        ________________________________________

        -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
        -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
        -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

        Comment


        • #19
          Is the main reason for this to stabilize the uni pivot wobble? Any audio benefit to this addition?
          Marty

          Comment


          • MylesBAstor
            MylesBAstor commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Marty, nice to see you around! Missed you!

          • nc42acc
            nc42acc commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks Myles.....I had to drop out for awhile to expand business and secure a new larger office. Glad to be back.

        • #20
          I'm planning to do this mod on my Avenger. Appreciate the information on setup and results Myles and others.

          Comment


          • #21
            I wonder why the all of a sudden the switch to dual pivot went they been making the unpivot forever.
            Amps: Passlabs 150.5 Linestage DIY 12AU7 SRPP. VIP Classic 3
            Phono: Sutherland 20/20 Digital Toshiba HD1a Cables: Tera Labs and DIY Speakers: 2 way DIY floor standing

            Comment


            • Rob
              Rob commented
              Editing a comment

            • mep
              mep commented
              Editing a comment
              You should always reserve the right to become smarter and improve your products. VPI is constantly trying to improve their products and I applaud them for that.

            • MylesBAstor
              MylesBAstor commented
              Editing a comment
              I think another factor is ergonomics. And appealing to either older audiophiles or those audiophiles who don't like the feel of a unipivot arm.

              But most of all, Harry and Mat implemented the dual pivot did it because they felt the design sounded better. The dual pivot project was also driven in part by Harry's experimenting with gimbaled arms. He liked the low end of the gimbaled arm (using a similar arm wand to the unipivot design) but thought the unipivot sounded better in the upper expanses. In the end, he felt the dual pivot brought the advantages of both designs.

              I will eventually try experimenting and see if like the SAT, the dual pivot can track at lighter weights than suggested. As I mentioned a while back, Marc Gomes set the Atlas up as 1.5 g (instead of 1.7g) and the A95 at 1.7 g(instead of 2.3 g) with no tracking problems. All thing being equal, lighter can be better but then there's always the issue of whether the MC generator mechanism is optimally aligned in the magnetic field for best performance. As always, there's trade offs and the one has to decide if it sounds better. Or saves on LP wear and tear over time.

          • #22
            Thanks Myles for the explanation I guess time will tell looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you tested it out for awhile.
            Amps: Passlabs 150.5 Linestage DIY 12AU7 SRPP. VIP Classic 3
            Phono: Sutherland 20/20 Digital Toshiba HD1a Cables: Tera Labs and DIY Speakers: 2 way DIY floor standing

            Comment


            • #23
              Still waiting for an in depth review re: VPI 3D 2nd pivot......can anyone contribute?

              Comment


              • #24
                Bated breath..

                Comment


                • #25
                  I'm just beginning to run-in my dual pivot on the JMW-12 3DR arm. So here are my initial thoughts. I think there are two main variables to the performance.

                  First, the dual pivot point rubs against the polished plate resulting in friction similar to "stiction" in a radial ball bearing. The arm is constantly moving across the record and the dual pivot point scrubs the polished plate surface, this results in a very small loss of overtones, decay, and ultra small detail compared to the unipivot. To optimize performance, we want to reduce the friction as much as possible. To reduce friction, I think it is helpful to adjust the side weight so the dual pivot lifts off, then add just the smallest amount of down force to keep the dual pivot from lifting off during playback. I would like to see the set screw point have a super polished radial point or better yet an inset sapphire ball point.

                  Second, the added "stiction" friction has a beneficial effect by increasing inertia for bass excursions, like adding more mass to the arm but not adding more mass to the arm. So there may be some trade-offs here. However, the bass is the foundation of the music, and having superior bass performance increases the realism of the playback over the entire frequency range. So far, this is an acceptable trade-off. Sort of like two steps forward and one step back resulting in a step forward. Much more listening and tweaking needed.

                  I would like to see VPI drill and tap a hole in all new arms for the dual pivot and make it a standard design. Users could decide to use it or not and it would add little cost.

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    I wonder whatever came of this arm they had at CAF2015? It sounded better than the uni pivot arm.

                    Marty

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      Originally posted by nc42acc View Post
                      I wonder whatever came of this arm they had at CAF2015? It sounded better than the uni pivot arm.
                      Harry and Mat feel the dual pivot is better. The gymbal arm in the picture had better low end but not as good top end as the unipivot. They feel the dual pivot does both extremes better.
                      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                      ________________________________________

                      -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                      -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                      -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                      Comment


                      • #28
                        Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
                        I'm just beginning to run-in my dual pivot on the JMW-12 3DR arm. So here are my initial thoughts. I think there are two main variables to the performance.

                        First, the dual pivot point rubs against the polished plate resulting in friction similar to "stiction" in a radial ball bearing. The arm is constantly moving across the record and the dual pivot point scrubs the polished plate surface, this results in a very small loss of overtones, decay, and ultra small detail compared to the unipivot. To optimize performance, we want to reduce the friction as much as possible. To reduce friction, I think it is helpful to adjust the side weight so the dual pivot lifts off, then add just the smallest amount of down force to keep the dual pivot from lifting off during playback. I would like to see the set screw point have a super polished radial point or better yet an inset sapphire ball point.

                        Second, the added "stiction" friction has a beneficial effect by increasing inertia for bass excursions, like adding more mass to the arm but not adding more mass to the arm. So there may be some trade-offs here. However, the bass is the foundation of the music, and having superior bass performance increases the realism of the playback over the entire frequency range. So far, this is an acceptable trade-off. Sort of like two steps forward and one step back resulting in a step forward. Much more listening and tweaking needed.

                        I would like to see VPI drill and tap a hole in all new arms for the dual pivot and make it a standard design. Users could decide to use it or not and it would add little cost.
                        I can't say that I noticed the downsides you mentioned in the first para with the Colibri. We will see what happens when the Atlas goes back in. I am not so sure that there is a loss of detail and overtones as much as there is an improvement in other areas that adds greater balance to the arm's sound.

                        Besides the bass performance, the other area that is scarily improved is imaging and palpability of performers.
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                        -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          Hey Guys

                          I am a newby here and I am enjoying the forum. I have been a member at the VPI forum for some time and I have followed this dual pivot idea since Harry first mentioned it. I have ordered mod kits for both my 3DR armwands.

                          What puzzles me in this thread is that there are pictures of the mod here that have the pivot installed in front of the side weight when viewing the arm from the front.

                          Unless i am mistaken the new pivot is supposed to mount behind the left side counterweight. Am I mistaken or has something changed???
                          Primary 2 channel stuff: Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk 3.3, Pass Labs X600.5 amps, Aerial SW 12 subs, True Sound Works Ultimate Apogee Divas, Dunlavy SC4s, VPI HRX Reference w Avenger mag drive and Reference footers, Gimbal Fatboy, Yamaha GT2000 for Mono, Miyajima Kansui, Miyajima ZERO, Fidelity Research MC-201 & 202, VPI ADS, Vendetta Research SCP-1, Audio Note UK- 3.1X II balanced DAC, Meridian Sooloos, Western Electric Speaker wire, mostly diy balanced interconnects, Furutech Power Cords

                          Comment


                          • #30
                            Originally posted by Letsmakeadeal View Post
                            Hey Guys

                            I am a newby here and I am enjoying the forum. I have been a member at the VPI forum for some time and I have followed this dual pivot idea since Harry first mentioned it. I have ordered mod kits for both my 3DR armwands.

                            What puzzles me in this thread is that there are pictures of the mod here that have the pivot installed in front of the side weight when viewing the arm from the front.

                            Unless i am mistaken the new pivot is supposed to mount behind the left side counterweight. Am I mistaken or has something changed???
                            Good question! I asked Mat about it too and either position is fine. I mounted mine in front like I saw at VPI a month or two ago, pre-written instructions. Apparently Harry is now mounting the dual pivot between the outrigger and CW. My only concern is their might be an issue if using a light cartridge and CW is moved near the pivot. As long as the pivot stays in contact thru the whole side things are copascetic.

                            Another reason Harry and Mat went the dual pivot route is that their older customers didn't like feel or felt unsure/unsafe with the free motion of the unipivot. The dual pivot is a more solid feeling. On the other hand, it too feels weird being neither unipivot or gymballed.
                            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                            ________________________________________

                            -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                            -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                            -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                            Comment

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