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VPI 3D Dual Pivot Conversion Kit

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  • #61
    Thanks Harry - That answers that!
    Primary 2 channel stuff: Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk 3.3, Pass Labs X600.5 amps, Aerial SW 12 subs, True Sound Works Ultimate Apogee Divas, Dunlavy SC4s, VPI HRX Reference w Avenger mag drive and Reference footers, Gimbal Fatboy, Yamaha GT2000 for Mono, Miyajima Kansui, Miyajima ZERO, Fidelity Research MC-201 & 202, VPI ADS, Vendetta Research SCP-1, Audio Note UK- 3.1X II balanced DAC, Meridian Sooloos, Western Electric Speaker wire, mostly diy balanced interconnects, Furutech Power Cords

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Letsmakeadeal View Post
      Jeff
      In the 3D arm there is a small hole directly over the pivot point into which a hex wrench will fit allowing adjustment of the female bearing cup up or down. You may have to remove the small black cap which just pulls out rather easily...I don't remember the exact size but it is rather easy to determine by trial and error. Also on my new arms the pivot point itself is adjustable up or down so you may have a couple of options to raise the pivot point. You will also probably have to readjust your cueing mechanism.
      Thanks for the help. There seems to be no hex screw in the bell cap, my metal arm does have it. I have a 3D with Valhalla and non adjustable side weights.

      Thanks again
      Jeff

      Comment


      • #63
        Jeff

        Pls. check again...I am pretty certain they all have this feature. Make sure you have an assortment of hex wrenches. Also check with BRF ON the VPI forum if no luck. Is your arm one of the original tapered 3D arms.
        Primary 2 channel stuff: Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk 3.3, Pass Labs X600.5 amps, Aerial SW 12 subs, True Sound Works Ultimate Apogee Divas, Dunlavy SC4s, VPI HRX Reference w Avenger mag drive and Reference footers, Gimbal Fatboy, Yamaha GT2000 for Mono, Miyajima Kansui, Miyajima ZERO, Fidelity Research MC-201 & 202, VPI ADS, Vendetta Research SCP-1, Audio Note UK- 3.1X II balanced DAC, Meridian Sooloos, Western Electric Speaker wire, mostly diy balanced interconnects, Furutech Power Cords

        Comment


        • #64
          I have a 3D that has an access hole right above where the spike of the pivot is. It takes an Allen wrench to screw/unscrew the nut which raises/lowers the arm on its spike.

          Comment


          • #65
            Miles - wondering if/when a formal review of the 2nd pivot is contemplated....

            Comment


            • MylesBAstor
              MylesBAstor commented
              Editing a comment
              Soon come. I just set up the Atlas SL with the dual pivot mod and have now tried it with two different cartridges. The results with the Atlas were nothing short of extraordinary.

          • #66
            I finally got the 2nd pivot kit and noticed that my cartridge was riding unusually low in the back....upon further inspection I found that the arm itself had cracked at the very front of the head shell...(no, I hadn't made the screws too tight). When I contacted VPI, they said to send it back to them and they'd send a new one....they were doing a production run in 2 weeks - they had no inventory left. They were very nice to talk with (Marc).

            Comment


            • Guest's Avatar
              Guest commented
              Editing a comment
              Don't you love manufacturers that take care of their customers.

          • #67
            I'll be at VPi June 9-11 and hope to learn more about the Dual Pivot kit and other things. Looking forward to seeing/hearing the Fat Boy tonearm and will probably order one when I am there...

            Comment


            • #68
              I have discovered a problem with my 2nd pivot assembly. In my kit the setscrew that rides on the polished plate fits loosely within the clamped portion of the assembly. After installing the assembly I set the azimuth using the setscrew with the help of my Fozgometer. About 10 days later I discovered what I had feared. Since the setscrew was fairly loose it backed out over time. I checked azimuth again and it had changed.

              I pulled out my Fozgometer, repeated the azimuth adjustment and then got out some thread lock. I placed the purple thread lock (the kind you can break with hand tools) on the setscrew and will check to see if it stays this time.

              Ed
              Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
              https://www.edsstuff.org

              Analog: Walnut VPI Prime TT, HRX Pulley + 3 Belt Drive + ADS Speed Ctrl, 3D Dual Pivot Assy, Tru Lift, HW-40 Feet
              Analog 2: Ortofon Windfeld Ti + Bob's Devices VPI Sky 30 Stepup + Liberty Audio B2B-1 Phono Preamp, Stereo Squares Dust Cover, Wayne's Audio Peripheral Ring
              Analog Care: VPI MW-1, Kirmuss KA-RC-1, Record Doctor V, Hunt EDA VI Brush, AQ Brush, Discwasher Record Care Kit
              Digital: TASCAM UH-7000 USB Interface, Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai Universal Disc Player, NAD C448 Internet Radio/Streamer
              Digital 2: Digital Audio Workstation (Toshiba P75-A7200 w/MS Windows 10, 24GB RAM, 1.5 TB Crucial MX300 SSD Internal Storage, Intel i7-4700MQ Processor)

              Amp: Rogue RP-9 Line Preamp, Schiit Loki Tone Ctrls, Parasound A21 Power Amp
              Speakers: Magnepan MMC2, REL T9/i Subwoofer
              Headphones: Stax Lambda Pro + SRM 1 MK II, Focal Clear + Schiit Lyr 2
              Wires: Kimber Hero ICs, Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables, AQ Leopard Phono IC, Pangea Silver USB Cables, StraightWire Expressivo ICs
              Power: Furman Elite 15 PFi

              Comment


              • Letsmakeadeal
                Letsmakeadeal commented
                Editing a comment
                Hey Ed - It has been reported by others that a couple of wraps of Teflon tape works great as well....

              • MylesBAstor
                MylesBAstor commented
                Editing a comment
                Weird, both of mine fit perfectly.

              • EdAInWestOC
                EdAInWestOC commented
                Editing a comment
                Maybe the power of the press??? Just kidding Myles.

            • #69
              Any update / link to the review and or additional info / feedback on member installations of the dual pivot? Thanks

              Comment


              • #70
                Re: 3D arm.....The new 3D's don't have the hole above the pivot as described.....the hole instead is covered by a cap. In order to get to that adjusting screw, you have to remove the cap. I removed mine by using a sharp razor and very gently prying under that cap and lifting. By doing it this way, there was no damage, and I could easily adjust the arm. On another point...the arm is greatly helped with the use of that 2nd pivot...my speakers have completely disappeared...even with poorly recorded LP's. The difference is amazing. There is an issue however with the 2nd pivot. The adjusting screw that sets the azimuth may be poorly machined on some kits, which alters the azimuth from time to time. Mine seems to be fine, but some people complain. If yours moves with the temp., use the Purple Loctite (no. 222) which will prevent the problem, but can be changed if desired. Before using the Loctite, use your Fozgometer for a couple of days to ensure it remains as you want it. It is very easy to adjust azimuth.. do it properly and accurately, and you will be rewarded.

                Comment


                • #71
                  The Dual Pivot is now my standard preferred accessory and provides a little better performance IMHO. The ability to precisely adjust azimuth is an added bonus. I finally got around to changing the stock screw points with precision 1.5 mm Ruby ball tipped screw (actually sapphire, Grade 25) on my three VPI arms.

                  The arm is constantly moving and causes the point to grind into the thrust plate. This creates a kind of mechanical jitter in my opinion.

                  I like the sound of the smooth Ruby ball much better, it also has very low friction. This is a low cost mod.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	VPI Dual Pivot Screw with Ruby Ball.jpg Views:	1 Size:	219.3 KB ID:	83852

                  Comment


                  • adeep42
                    adeep42 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Would love to try one. Would be delighted to pay $10.00 plus S & H. PM me. Thanks.

                  • vego99
                    vego99 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ohh, Hey Joe!! I didn't know you were on this forum.. Well.... I'm new here so that may be a reason! Great chatting with you on the VPI Facebook forum today about this, nice work!

                  • EdAInWestOC
                    EdAInWestOC commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Definately, I want one...let me know how you want to proceed via email at [email protected] or PM either/or.

                • #72
                  Has anyone had trouble adjusting the dual pivot azimuth with the Foz? Apparently according to Harry and Peter L., I'm not the only one. The meter just swings back and forth. I changed the battery and no luck. I even sent the Foz back to be checked out and the good folks at Musical Surroundings says it's aok and properly calibrated. Musical Surroundings did say that it was impossible to set azimuth with some cartridges and the Foz. But I don't remember having this problem initially with the Atlas or Colibris.

                  I even tried removing the dual pivot and all is fine then when setting azimuth with the Foz. The meter is rock solid. So it's something related to the dual pivot. Another weird thing. Add a little weight like the vdh bubble while setting azimuth and the output on the Foz doubles. I've experimented with different "loadings" of the dual pivot and nothing helps. I did try cleaning the Teflon with some alcohol this afternoon and the plate was dirty. But I haven't gone back and rechecked azimuth since. But cleaning seemed to help the sound.
                  Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                  Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                  ________________________________________

                  -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                  -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                  -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                  -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                  -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                  -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                  -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                  -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                  -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                  -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                  Comment


                  • Letsmakeadeal
                    Letsmakeadeal commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Myles - What do you mean when you say you cleaned the Teflon? AFAIK the plate as supplied has a protective plastic film on it. I am certain that this plastic should be removed during installation. Is it possible this is the source of your problem? Pivot digging into soft plastic? Manual says remove plastic protective cover.

                    http://www.elusivedisc.com/vpi-r0009-manual.pdf

                  • dmm714
                    dmm714 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hey Myles, I was having this problem with dual pivot as well, but only swinging on the left channel. I'm guessing that it has to do with friction on the thrust plate. I ordered the Ruby set screw from Joe and now the Foz is reading correctly on both sides. I believe that the steel set screw eventually scratches the plate and causes friction. I could actually feel the friction in the arm while cueing. See pic in post below.

                  • MylesBAstor
                    MylesBAstor commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thx!

                • #73
                  Just used it this past weekend and there was some drift in the measurements but I made both channels read the same (including drift). The most it drifts back and forth is +/- 5. The dual pivot makes azimuth adjustments easy.
                  Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
                  https://www.edsstuff.org

                  Analog: Walnut VPI Prime TT, HRX Pulley + 3 Belt Drive + ADS Speed Ctrl, 3D Dual Pivot Assy, Tru Lift, HW-40 Feet
                  Analog 2: Ortofon Windfeld Ti + Bob's Devices VPI Sky 30 Stepup + Liberty Audio B2B-1 Phono Preamp, Stereo Squares Dust Cover, Wayne's Audio Peripheral Ring
                  Analog Care: VPI MW-1, Kirmuss KA-RC-1, Record Doctor V, Hunt EDA VI Brush, AQ Brush, Discwasher Record Care Kit
                  Digital: TASCAM UH-7000 USB Interface, Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai Universal Disc Player, NAD C448 Internet Radio/Streamer
                  Digital 2: Digital Audio Workstation (Toshiba P75-A7200 w/MS Windows 10, 24GB RAM, 1.5 TB Crucial MX300 SSD Internal Storage, Intel i7-4700MQ Processor)

                  Amp: Rogue RP-9 Line Preamp, Schiit Loki Tone Ctrls, Parasound A21 Power Amp
                  Speakers: Magnepan MMC2, REL T9/i Subwoofer
                  Headphones: Stax Lambda Pro + SRM 1 MK II, Focal Clear + Schiit Lyr 2
                  Wires: Kimber Hero ICs, Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables, AQ Leopard Phono IC, Pangea Silver USB Cables, StraightWire Expressivo ICs
                  Power: Furman Elite 15 PFi

                  Comment


                  • #74
                    I just had a chance to install Joes Ruby set screws in my tonearms. The drop in friction is quite obvious just to the touch. I could feel the friction while just cueing the arm. The steel points were scratching a line into the thrust plate.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    I also replaced the damaged plate with a spare that I had laying around and the soundstage is now rock solid. I think the friction was smearing the image. The friction was also causing my Fozgometer to have trouble reading the left channel (wild swings on the meter). Now both sides are reading solid. I also wonder if there is room for improvement with the thrust plate?

                    Thanks Joe! Amazing ingenuity at a fair price. This should be standard on the dual pivot!

                    Comment


                  • #75
                    For the dual pivot to work at its optimal level it needs to loaded correctly. The loading has to be enough to resist the rotational torque caused by motion of the cantilever in a modulated groove.

                    I’ve theorizing as to what would be the optimal force applied on the skate plate by the dual pivot. I then tested my theory with extensive listening test and my conclusions are listed below
                    1. The dual pivot point load/force should be 60-70% of the cartridge’s vertical tracking force.
                    1. A dual pivot load/force less than 60% of the cartridge VTF may result in audible dual pivot bearing chatter in heavily modulated grooves
                    1. A dual pivot force greater than 70% of the cartridge vtf will result in compressed micro dynamics and loss of high end extension.

                    The above results were based on a 12” arm

                    I run a Dynavector XV1s with a 2.0g VTF and a 1.25g on the dual pivot point.

                    If you are getting a trace mark on your skate plate, then your loading is way too much.

                    Comment


                    • MylesBAstor
                      MylesBAstor commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Thanks for the info. How are you measuring VTF at the dual pivot Brent?

                      No doubt need to optimally tune the dual pivot and who knows if it isn’t cartridge dependent? Maybe I went too far one time but when I maybe overloaded the dual pivot the sound became really thin and bright. Almost unlistenable.

                      I remember in the beginning Harry saying add just enough weight so the dual pivot touches the plate.

                      Maybe the gymballed Fat Boy is for me.

                    • Brf
                      Brf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Myles, I post my method of measuring the load on the dual pivot on the VPI forum last year Not sure how to post a link, but it can be found here http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.ph...lit=dual+pivot.

                      It's very simple. I have a set of calibration weights that I place a bit of blu tack on the bottom and attached them on dual pivot's opposing azimuth weight.

                      As an example, assume that the dual pivot is loaded with an unknown force. If I place a known counteracting force (example 2g weight) on the opposite side of the dual pivot (opposing azimuth weight) and the dual pivot releases off the skate plate and the tonearm azimuth reaches equilibrium, I can conclude that the load on the pivot is equal to the known counter acting force (2 grams). Please note that the aforementioned process is an approximation since the opposing counter force is not an equal distance and not inline with the dual pivot.

                      Simply put, it's a balance scale approach.

                      If one does not have a set of calibration weights, you can use a stylus pressure scale and use a blob of blu tac (or something similar) that approximates the desired weight.

                    • MylesBAstor
                      MylesBAstor commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Got it!
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