David, Have you compared your SME 3012R to an SME V-12? I'm just curious if there are sonic differences? I'm not familiar with the 3012R so I do not know if the features and adjustments are even the same? Any information that you could share would be greatly appreciated.
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SME 3012 Tonearm
David, Have you compared your SME 3012R to an SME V-12? I'm just curious if there are sonic differences? I'm not familiar with the 3012R so I do not know if the features and adjustments are even the same? Any information that you could share would be greatly appreciated.System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cords -
Hi Peter,
Besides sharing the same sled base design the two arms have nothing else in common, sonically or otherwise. In fact they're exact opposites in in their design philosophy and engineering, and by extension in sound quality.
davidManufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Racks
Special Sales: van den Hul Cartridges
Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Jensen Transformers
Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup👍 2 -
Now you have me intrigued, David. At first glance, I image it would have to do with rigidity, damping, resonance control with the V-12, but I could be completely wrong. Could you briefly explain the sonic differences? Perhaps it is too big a topic, or you have explained this all before, but I am quite interested in reading about the differences. Someday I hope to also hear them. I really only became aware of the 3012R by reading about your system on WBF.System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cords👍 1Comment
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Everything in vinyl is about resonance, materials have a direct impact as does the design. Rigidity isn't always desired nor is absolute dampening, there are other things involved that are beyond my pay grade but I know that they come into play. Sometimes resonance and certain amount of flexibility can yield better results.
Describing the differences between the arms isn't a big topic Peter but its one that I try to avoid when I could be stepping on a friend's toes. Its obvious that 3012 is my favorite arm, there are other excellent ones but the 3012 is extremely well balanced, uncolored and "Natural", specially in the bass. Set up is straight forward and the geometry is near perfect, set the overhang once properly and forget about it. From an engineering standpoint and in terms of design, materials the V is more sophisticated but sonically I find it lacking. For me the V and the V-12 sound very colored and the bass is completely wrong with these arms, that's why they never appealed. They might work in some systems and on some tables but not in mine.
david
Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Racks
Special Sales: van den Hul Cartridges
Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Jensen Transformers
Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup👍 1Comment
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Originally posted by MylesBAstor
If people want I can create a new thread.
davidManufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Racks
Special Sales: van den Hul Cartridges
Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Jensen Transformers
Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup👍 2Comment
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Manana.Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 440 and 1000 Nextgen mono amps
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, vdh Colibri Master Signature, Mutech Hayabusa,
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna, Audience FrontRow; Audience FrontRow, Genesis Advanced Technologies , Goldmund and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.3+ platforms.👍 1Comment
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Originally posted by MylesBAstor
If people want I can create a new thread.System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cords👍 1Comment
-
Everything in vinyl is about resonance, materials have a direct impact as does the design. Rigidity isn't always desired nor is absolute dampening, there are other things involved that are beyond my pay grade but I know that they come into play. Sometimes resonance and certain amount of flexibility can yield better results.
Describing the differences between the arms isn't a big topic Peter but its one that I try to avoid when I could be stepping on a friend's toes. Its obvious that 3012 is my favorite arm, there are other excellent ones but the 3012 is extremely well balanced, uncolored and "Natural", specially in the bass. Set up is straight forward and the geometry is near perfect, set the overhang once properly and forget about it. From an engineering standpoint and in terms of design, materials the V is more sophisticated but sonically I find it lacking. For me the V and the V-12 sound very colored and the bass is completely wrong with these arms, that's why they never appealed. They might work in some systems and on some tables but not in mine.
davidSystem link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cords👍 2Comment
-
Everything in vinyl is about resonance, materials have a direct impact as does the design. Rigidity isn't always desired nor is absolute dampening, there are other things involved that are beyond my pay grade but I know that they come into play. Sometimes resonance and certain amount of flexibility can yield better results.
Describing the differences between the arms isn't a big topic Peter but its one that I try to avoid when I could be stepping on a friend's toes. Its obvious that 3012 is my favorite arm, there are other excellent ones but the 3012 is extremely well balanced, uncolored and "Natural", specially in the bass. Set up is straight forward and the geometry is near perfect, set the overhang once properly and forget about it. From an engineering standpoint and in terms of design, materials the V is more sophisticated but sonically I find it lacking. For me the V and the V-12 sound very colored and the bass is completely wrong with these arms, that's why they never appealed. They might work in some systems and on some tables but not in mine.
david
The SME 3012R- got it only a few weeks ago - has however a greater immediacy - re-listening to Paniagua Harmonia Mundi LPs was a great experience. There are less constrains in the music, the sound of instruments starts immediately when they are hit, and bass is not a linear well behaved process any more - you feel its fast composed rise and decay. The long time question can be if the lack of coloration David refers is not taking away anything. Curiously the SME 3012R reminds me more of the Eminent Technology II type of sound than that of the SME V.My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.👍 2Comment
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Thanks David. That is a good summary. I'll have to try one in my system at some point, though with the limited LF extension of my system, the differences in bass quality may not be that easily heard. I am also getting ready to insert a Technics SP10 Mk3 with V-12/AirTight Supreme into my system for a direct comparison to my SME 30/12.
DavidManufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Racks
Special Sales: van den Hul Cartridges
Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Jensen Transformers
Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup👍 1Comment
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I bought one of my SME 3012R arms from David. I have a second NOS waiting for me when I get time to add another armboard and cart. I have tried at least four other 12" arms and none come close to making the music the 3012R does. It is even handed, the bass is never over done. In my case the other arms always sounded fat and ill defined compared to the 3012R. The arm tracks wonderfully and never fails to keep me listening.👍 2Comment
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Yes, these two arms are completely different. IMHO many people use the SME V in the wrong turntables - and then its bass can become boring and slow. I have owned two of them and only enjoyed it with the SME30 - it complemented the turntable very well creating a seamless balance, helping to forget about the mechanical aspects of vinyl, with great spaciousness.
The SME 3012R- got it only a few weeks ago - has however a greater immediacy - re-listening to Paniagua Harmonia Mundi LPs was a great experience. There are less constrains in the music, the sound of instruments starts immediately when they are hit, and bass is not a linear well behaved process any more - you feel its fast composed rise and decay. The long time question can be if the lack of coloration David refers is not taking away anything. Curiously the SME 3012R reminds me more of the Eminent Technology II type of sound than that of the SME V.
However, my interest in piqued now about the 3012R and I may have to figure out a way to audition it in my system.
Has anyone heard the 3012R with either the AirTight Supreme or the MSL Signature Gold?
System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cords👍 1Comment
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Thanks for this, microstrip. Have you ever compared the V to the V-12? I owned both and did a direct comparison on my turntable. The V-12 is considerably better in terms of resolution, smoothness and extension. It was like comparing a two way to a three way speaker, but with no loss of coherence. It is smoother, throws a bigger soundstage with a better sense of space. I did not hear the slightly quicker more dynamic sound some have attributed to the 9" relative to the 12". They sound quite different and I do think the V-12 sounds very natural.
However, my interest in piqued now about the 3012R and I may have to figure out a way to audition it in my system.
Has anyone heard the 3012R with either the AirTight Supreme or the MSL Signature Gold?Last edited by microstrip; 02-25-2016, 05:09 PM.My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.👍 1Comment
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I bought one of my SME 3012R arms from David. I have a second NOS waiting for me when I get time to add another armboard and cart. I have tried at least four other 12" arms and none come close to making the music the 3012R does. It is even handed, the bass is never over done. In my case the other arms always sounded fat and ill defined compared to the 3012R. The arm tracks wonderfully and never fails to keep me listening.Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
________________________________________
-Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
-Goldmund Telos 440 and 1000 Nextgen mono amps
-Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
-Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
-VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
-VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
-Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, vdh Colibri Master Signature, Mutech Hayabusa,
-Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
-Assorted cables including Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna, Audience FrontRow; Audience FrontRow, Genesis Advanced Technologies , Goldmund and Ensemble Power Cords
-Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.3+ platforms.👍 1Comment
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I never had the opportunity to listen to the V-12, my only reference was the SME V. But the differences are not the type of difference you feel going to a larger speaker - they are not of more, but in fundamental aspects. Please note I am not saying that one is better than the other, just different. I still do not own an adequate turntable to the SME 3012R, it is assembled temporary in a Scheu with a 80mm thick platter. BTW, I saw a SME3012R at eBay today at an interesting price, but I already got two of them, I do not need a third one!
David, you know a way around what looks like a connection issue in my particular situation? To do a proper direct comparison, I would want to use the same cable. Another issue is that I can only mount one tone arm on my turntable. SME says that it will not design a table for two arms, even though many have asked them to do it. Someone is offering a high quality two-am aftermarket option for the new SME Model 15 turntable.
I am going to reach out to Albert Porter who has extensive experience with the 312S and V-12. He has compared them to a few of the current top arms, though I do not know if he has tried the 3012R.
Last edited by PeterA; 02-26-2016, 05:36 PM.System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
American Sound AS2000, SME 3012R, vdH Colibri GC Elite 0.25 mV
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1 Signature, Lamm ML2.
Vitavox CN-191 corner horns, NOS cables, Ching Cheng power cordsComment
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