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  • Minus K, Herzan, Vibraplane...

    Is there a consensus on which isolation device of the above three are better suited for TTs? One of my 'tables is of the non-suspended mass-loaded school of design and is susceptible to foot falls, not severe but its present. The minus K is not active but seems to have a following the other types have their fans as well. I'm especially interested if you have used a minus K on a suspended floor.TIA.
    Simon Yorke + Zyx + B.M.C .> Soulution > Boulder > Magico

    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  • #2
    I believe you should add the Halcyonics/Accurion active magnetic devices to your list. They are very good in my view.

    Comment


    • Rob
      Rob commented
      Editing a comment
      it looks the part, whats the price range on these?

  • #3
    I'd be curious to hear from someone who has compared a purpose built TT iso device (such as an SRA Virginia or Ohio Class platform) with one or more of the above mentioned.

    Comment


    • MylesBAstor
      MylesBAstor commented
      Editing a comment
      +1 FWIW, I spoke to Kevin about the plusses and minuses of both platforms--because Kevin has made and has experience with both types of bases--and recommends his solution. I also--and have to give Peter a call--want to try the new Symposium Quantum platforms.

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for the comment. Remind me what you are using under your VPI CD or is straight onto the Craz?

    • MylesBAstor
      MylesBAstor commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Tim, I'm using the Ohio Class XL+2 under the VPI table.

  • #4
    Where's Lloyd (LL21)? Think he has some excellent experience using various iso devices.
    Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

    Comment


    • #5
      I have not used any of the above a friend has a Mass loaded table if you are calling it that he built a box filled it with fine sand put a platform on the sand it was cheap to do and he felt he got a big gain from it.

      Comment


      • MylesBAstor
        MylesBAstor commented
        Editing a comment
        There's no doubt that a sand filled platform like the Bright Star I reviewed 20 years ago (?) can be cheap but not as good as say the SRA base alternative. You do always have an issue with the sand settling though and that drove me crazy.

      • Garth
        Garth commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah I have cats to thats why I never tried it.

    • #6
      As usual things aren't straightforward in high end audio Rob. I don't know the severity of your footfall problem but higher mass loading might be your best bet f it's bad. IME using these platforms under tts can have side effects and drastically alter the character of your sound, depending on your tastes and tt you might or might not like the end result, if you can trial before purchase is advised. For myself I went the high mass route after trying active suspension. How bad is your floor and what tt/rack(mass?) combination are you using now?
      david


      Originally posted by Rob View Post
      Is there a consensus on which isolation device of the above three are better suited for TTs? One of my 'tables is of the non-suspended mass-loaded school of design and is susceptible to foot falls, not severe but its present. The minus K is not active but seems to have a following the other types have their fans as well. I'm especially interested if you have used a minus K on a suspended floor.TIA.
      Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
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      • #7
        I have the original Arcici Lead Belly, which I absolutely REFUSE to part with. Where is Ray Shab?

        Comment


        • #8
          Originally posted by SundayNiagara View Post
          I have the original Arcici Lead Belly, which I absolutely REFUSE to part with. Where is Ray Shab?

          Ray passed away a couple of years ago. Sadly I can't find the link to his obit.
          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
          ________________________________________

          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
          -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

          Comment


          • #9
            Originally posted by david k View Post
            As usual things aren't straightforward in high end audio Rob. I don't know the severity of your footfall problem but higher mass loading might be your best bet f it's bad. IME using these platforms under tts can have side effects and drastically alter the character of your sound, depending on your tastes and tt you might or might not like the end result, if you can trial before purchase is advised. For myself I went the high mass route after trying active suspension. How bad is your floor and what tt/rack(mass?) combination are you using now?
            david


            I do have two racks for this table one is high mass custom job fabricated from 2x2 steel uprights, 1x2 braces and a machinist surface plate (granite) top. the other is by Solid Steel. the 'table in question is about 60+ lbs and would be fine on either stand if I were on a concrete slab floor. my place is typ So Cal split level tract house with a wood sub floor built of 2x6 floor joist and 5/8 ply sheeting. The other solution is supporting the floor joist area under my 'table stand, there's enough crawl space to do that.

            If I'm not mistaken the Herzan might be five figures in cost, in which case I wouldn't buy that and fix the floor instead. Apparently the Minus K is relatively affordable and could be used elsewhere if I out grew it.

            Minus K demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5idWwhc948

            The new Dohmann turntable uses Minus K technology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRGLXOFQKb4
            Last edited by Rob; 04-04-2016, 12:19 AM.
            Simon Yorke + Zyx + B.M.C .> Soulution > Boulder > Magico

            "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

            Comment


            • #10
              Originally posted by SundayNiagara View Post
              I have the original Arcici Lead Belly, which I absolutely REFUSE to part with. Where is Ray Shab?

              IIRC, the lead belly was made of steel (lead?) cross pieces that sat on his stand that was called the "lead Balloon" I saw them back in the day but never really considered one.
              Simon Yorke + Zyx + B.M.C .> Soulution > Boulder > Magico

              "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

              Comment


              • #11
                It all "depends" whether an isolation device improves the sound or not. In terms of absolute isolation...isolating down to the lowest frequency...< 1 Hz for example...Herzan ( Table Stable ) or Accurion are the only games in town. These active isolation devices counteract(actively) vibration both in the vertical and horizontal axis. I have used the Herzan TS140 under my Clear Audio Master Innovation...non suspended design with good results. I now use that same isolation device under my air suspended TechDas AF1. I am convinced the AF1 sounds better with it than without it. I recently sent my TS140 in for service to have the springs upgraded to give the unit 100lbs more weight capacity. While it was gone, fidelity on my AF1 suffered.

                The key is being able to demo a unit before you buy. That is something you can do with Herzan. I have no experience with minus K which Fremer uses with his Caliburn.
                Christian
                System Gear

                Comment


                • #12
                  Originally posted by Rob View Post


                  IIRC, the lead belly was made of steel (lead?) cross pieces that sat on his stand that was called the "lead Balloon" I saw them back in the day but never really considered one.

                  There was a time people were making 'sandboxes' and filling them, first with sand, but then came the switch to lead shot and oil. Float a wood or granite slab on top and there was your TT isolation. I never quite understood.

                  Comment


                  • MylesBAstor
                    MylesBAstor commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Don't forget the Arcici Air Head that used small, air filled rubber inner tubes inside!

                • #13
                  Originally posted by rockitman View Post
                  It all "depends" whether an isolation device improves the sound or not. In terms of absolute isolation...isolating down to the lowest frequency...< 1 Hz for example...Herzan ( Table Stable ) or Accurion are the only games in town. These active isolation devices counteract(actively) vibration both in the vertical and horizontal axis. I have used the Herzan TS140 under my Clear Audio Master Innovation...non suspended design with good results. I now use that same isolation device under my air suspended TechDas AF1. I am convinced the AF1 sounds better with it than without it. I recently sent my TS140 in for service to have the springs upgraded to give the unit 100lbs more weight capacity. While it was gone, fidelity on my AF1 suffered.

                  The key is being able to demo a unit before you buy. That is something you can do with Herzan. I have no experience with minus K which Fremer uses with his Caliburn.
                  Couple of things that people may or may not know about the Silent Running Audio bases:

                  "According to Tellekamp, the Virginia-Class isoBase begins isolating at around 0.3Hz, and provides nearly 35dB of isolation x - 5Hz.."

                  "But consider: if your system is on a cement floor, in a basement listening room, say, it will react differently to vibration than if it’s arrayed on a suspended floor, e.g., in a living room, as it will on rack shelves. At the customer’s request, an Ohio Class XL plus platform is tweaked to accommodate these nuances."

                  Then also factor in the base is custom designed for the component resting upon it so you don't have to play around with the optimal loading of the air tables too.
                  Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                  Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                  ________________________________________

                  -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                  -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                  -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                  -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                  -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                  -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                  -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                  -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                  -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                  -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    Although they are not currently receiving any press, I have had very good luck with the Halyonics Isolation bases (active) which were originally designed for isolating laboratory instuments. Unfortunately, they are also very expensive. I bought both of mine used. A somewhat less expensive solution is the Finite Elemente Pagode Reference Stand used in conjunction with their Cerabases. They are good but not comparable to the Halcyonics. The Rockport comes with its own air isolation which is very effective in that application.
                    Rockport Sirius turntable, Lyra Atlas SL cartridge, Audio Note M9 SE Phono stage, Audio Note M10 (Signature) linestage, EMM Labs TX2/DA2 digital, Audio Note Balanced Kegon amps, EMM Labs MTRX amps, Acapella Triolons, Jorma Prime and Odin 2 cables, Stage 3 Kraken power cords, HB Marble Powerslave, Finite Elemente Pagode Reference stands and Cerabases, Halcyonics active isolation bases, HRS Equipment stand, Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers, Furitech cable isolators and plugs, Loricraft and Audiodesk vinyl cleaners, Yamaha CT7000 Tuner.

                    Comment


                    • MylesBAstor
                      MylesBAstor commented
                      Editing a comment
                      The new VPI DD Avengers from HW comes with &quot;air suspension&quot; in the table's feet.

                  • #15
                    Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                    Couple of things that people may or may not know about the Silent Running Audio bases:

                    Couple of things that people may or may not know about the Silent Running Audio bases:

                    "According to Tellekamp, the Virginia-Class isoBase begins isolating at around 0.3Hz, and provides nearly 35dB of isolation x - 5Hz.."


                    Where is the information on this passive shelf isolation device that says it isolates down to .3Hz ?

                    Table Stable TS140 (Herzan) isolation specs:
                    • Active Vibration Isolation from 0.7 - 1,000 Hz
                    • Passive Vibration Isolation from 1,000 Hz and Beyond
                    • 90% Vibration Attenuation at 3.5 Hz
                    • 99% Vibration Attenuation at 10 Hz
                    • 99.9 Vibration Attenuation at 20 Hz and Beyond

                    What are SRS comparable measurements ? I would think if they could isolate better than much more expensive active solutions, Laboratories would be flocking to SRS. I don't think your quoted spec is apples to apples. Maybe I'm wrong.
                    Christian
                    System Gear

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