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  • Balanced output from TT

    Is anyone running balanced interconnects from their tt to the phono amp? If so, what is your experience? What table are you using? Did you have to modify it for balanced operation? How has it worked? Thanks.

  • #2
    Originally posted by BillH View Post
    Is anyone running balanced interconnects from their tt to the phono amp? If so, what is your experience? What table are you using? Did you have to modify it for balanced operation? How has it worked? Thanks.
    • Hi Bill,

      Good question. I am running my cartridge differentially balanced out to my Doshi V3.0 phonostage using some specially designed Transparent balanced phono cables that Nick and Josh (from Transparent) co-developed. My table is the VPI Classic Direct and 3D tonearm. The phono cables is the newest Transparent Gen V.

      You don't necessarily have to have balanced outputs on your arm to do it either though as some point out, balanced connectors may just be better sounding or provide a better connection. But after listening to the newest top-of-the-line Furutech RCAs, that may not be true either and I'm seriously considering using them on my new table. So bascially I'm running SE out to balanced in. And as Nick said, the cartridge is connection agnostic.

      Nick explained why can use SE out from the table to his unit though:

      1- MC cartridges are differential devices - this simply means that both +/- are floating (not tied to ground) and that they have signal present in equal magnitude and opposite phase.

      2- A differential amplifier amplifies the signal present on both the positive and negative legs of the cartridge. it is better able to reject common mode noise and since it is not referenced to ground, is relatively immune to ground noise. If I believed SE technology would suffice, I would have used it.

      3- The Transparent phono cable that Josh developed uses transparent networks in differential mode thus preserving the transmission of the signal to the Phono input. Feel free to contact Josh at transparent for further information


      As far as sound goes. I hope you can appreciate the difficulty in doing comparisons but here's what I hear. Of course, a lot will depend upon your cartridge and phono section and itheir quietness, dynamics, etc ceilings too so it can realize the potential of balanced operation.

      What I hear are basically three things:
    • It's quieter
    • It's more dynamic
    • There's more information and all that it brings.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

    Comment


    • #3
      Very interesting. Thank you Myles. I am very interested in the cables you describe. Let me make sure I understand. Am I correct that the cables have an RCA connector on one end (to plug into the TT) and XLR on the other end to plug into the phono amp?

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh wow, what a timely topic. I'm lying on my sofa nursing my herniated disc while searching for balanced phono cables. My phono only has balanced in, so I'm using old Cardas SE cables to Purist Audio RCA to XLR adaptors while I search for a longer term solution.

        I was thinking of getting a female DIN to XLR cable, which a few companies make or can make if desired. Would that work and suffice? But do I really get the benefit of differential design if I do?


        Myles, very curious which direction you go into your Doshi. If Furutech RCA, does the Doshi have SE inputs? If not, which RCA->XLR adaptors would you use?


        Thanks for raising this topic, Bill!
        Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

        Comment


        • #5
          Allen, I hope your disc is getting better quickly. That can hurt big time. What phono stage are you using? If I understand Myles post correctly, he has a Transparent cable that converts form RCA at the TT end to RCA at the phono end. That arrangement should give you the benefits of balanced operation as long as the "ground" side of the RCA connectors on the TT is not grounded. The cartridge is differential in that, for each channel, it has two symmetrical outputs in opposite phase. A few tables ground one side however, which means you can get only single ended signals from such a table unless you can break that ground.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BillH View Post
            Very interesting. Thank you Myles. I am very interested in the cables you describe. Let me make sure I understand. Am I correct that the cables have an RCA connector on one end (to plug into the TT) and XLR on the other end to plug into the phono amp?
            Yes that is correct.
            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
            -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
            -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm running balanced into a Rowland Cadence. I re-terminated the captive Yamamura Sys phono cable coming out of my RPM-2 arm and installed Neutrik XLRs. Its not rocket science and easy (for me). Allen mail me your tonearm cable and I'll re-terminate it for you gratis. RCAs can be wired for balanced as long as you don't tie the sheild with the neg leg, the pos/neg legs have to float and the sheild is tied to your ground wire and is what is connected to your ground post. Honestly i don,t know why mfr would insist on RCA for a balanced phono connection except for sloth or the non-perfectionist.
              Last edited by Rob; 02-06-2016, 03:44 PM.
              Simon Yorke S10 + My Sonic Lab Eminent GL + B.M.C. MCCI Signature ULN | Simon Yorke S9 + Koetsu Rosewood Standard + AcousticPlan Phonomaster | Wadia X-32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

              "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by allenh View Post
                Oh wow, what a timely topic. I'm lying on my sofa nursing my herniated disc while searching for balanced phono cables. My phono only has balanced in, so I'm using old Cardas SE cables to Purist Audio RCA to XLR adaptors while I search for a longer term solution.

                I was thinking of getting a female DIN to XLR cable, which a few companies make or can make if desired. Would that work and suffice? But do I really get the benefit of differential design if I do?


                Myles, very curious which direction you go into your Doshi. If Furutech RCA, does the Doshi have SE inputs? If not, which RCA->XLR adaptors would you use?


                Thanks for raising this topic, Bill!

                Ouch my sympathies.

                I think you would have to talk to Trinity for that info. I think it should as far as cables go (Transparent had to of course mate it to their networking) but would definitely check first.

                The Doshi comes configured whatever way you want it to. It comes with one MC and two MM (one loaded at 47K for MM and one at 10 K for SUT). Mine came with a SE MC input and eliminated one of the MM in favor of balanced. So have one loaded for SUT MM input.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am very pleased to se that there is interest in running balanced from the TT to the phono preamp. If there is any place in the audio chain where it makes sense to take advantage of the noise suppression capabilities of a balanced connection running into a true differential amplifier, it is where we are dealing with the tiny signal generated by the cartridge. Amy noise that creeps in at the stage will be terribly destructive of the music. Of course, to get the benefit of the balanced connection you have to be sure that the input of your phono stage is in fact a true differential amplifier. For those curious about balanced/differential circuitry, I have put 3 short papers up in the blog section.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BillH View Post
                    I am very pleased to se that there is interest in running balanced from the TT to the phono preamp. If there is any place in the audio chain where it makes sense to take advantage of the noise suppression capabilities of a balanced connection running into a true differential amplifier, it is where we are dealing with the tiny signal generated by the cartridge. Amy noise that creeps in at the stage will be terribly destructive of the music. Of course, to get the benefit of the balanced connection you have to be sure that the input of your phono stage is in fact a true differential amplifier. For those curious about balanced/differential circuitry, I have put 3 short papers up in the blog section.

                    Thanks so much Bill! They are short and sweet and to the point. Excellent read!
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Most tonearm cables use two signal wires and shield per channel and can be easily converted to balanced.

                      Balanced inputs are intrinsically free from common mode noise, but not from the electronic noise of the input devices. In order to implement a balanced input we need to have a circuit with two separate input active devices that generates the difference between the two points (the so called differential input). Theoretically it could have more electronic noise than a single ended circuit. Also, the distortions of a differential input are in principle different from those of single ended circuits. It is why none of the typologies can be considered a priori better than the other - most of it depends on the implementation and characteristics of the system.
                      My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by allenh View Post
                        Oh wow, what a timely topic. I'm lying on my sofa nursing my herniated disc while searching for balanced phono cables. My phono only has balanced in, so I'm using old Cardas SE cables to Purist Audio RCA to XLR adaptors while I search for a longer term solution.

                        I was thinking of getting a female DIN to XLR cable, which a few companies make or can make if desired. Would that work and suffice? But do I really get the benefit of differential design if I do?


                        Myles, very curious which direction you go into your Doshi. If Furutech RCA, does the Doshi have SE inputs? If not, which RCA->XLR adaptors would you use?


                        Thanks for raising this topic, Bill!
                        What type of Cardas cable is used in your phono cable? Most Cardas cables are balanced (they use the same cable for SE and XLR cables), probably you will have just to cut the RCA plug, separate the wires and terminate it with XLR male plugs.
                        Last edited by microstrip; 02-06-2016, 07:25 PM.
                        My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BillH View Post
                          Allen, I hope your disc is getting better quickly. That can hurt big time. What phono stage are you using? If I understand Myles post correctly, he has a Transparent cable that converts form RCA at the TT end to RCA at the phono end. That arrangement should give you the benefits of balanced operation as long as the "ground" side of the RCA connectors on the TT is not grounded. The cartridge is differential in that, for each channel, it has two symmetrical outputs in opposite phase. A few tables ground one side however, which means you can get only single ended signals from such a table unless you can break that ground.

                          Thanks, Bill. I'm using a Trinity phonostage. All Trinity components are completely balanced designs.
                          Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rob View Post
                            I'm running balanced into a Rowland Cadence. I re-terminated the captive Yamamura Sys phono cable coming out of my RPM-2 arm and installed Neutrik XLRs. Its not rocket science and easy (for me). Allen mail me your tonearm cable and I'll re-terminate it for you gratis. RCAs can be wired for balanced as long as you don't tie the sheild with the neg leg, the pos/neg legs have to float and the sheild is tied to your ground wire and is what is connected to your ground post. Honestly i don,t know why mfr would insist on RCA for a balanced phono connection except for sloth or the non-perfectionist.

                            Rob, thank you very much sir! Definitely appreciate the gesture buddy! But I really need to rethink my cable situation. If you notice I make no mention of the cable brands I'm using and where. There's 5 different cable brands that I used throughout my system, and save for a lone Shunyata Anaconda Zitron PC, none are what I would call TOTL, LOL! So I just got off a call with one of my dealers talking about different cable options for me. Most likely I'll be heading towards a new phono cable that like Myles', will be single ended one side, XLR on the other.

                            Yes, forgot you used the Rowland Cadence. And of course Rowland has always been a proponent of true differential designs.
                            Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post


                              Ouch my sympathies.

                              I think you would have to talk to Trinity for that info. I think it should as far as cables go (Transparent had to of course mate it to their networking) but would definitely check first.

                              The Doshi comes configured whatever way you want it to. It comes with one MC and two MM (one loaded at 47K for MM and one at 10 K for SUT). Mine came with a SE MC input and eliminated one of the MM in favor of balanced. So have one loaded for SUT MM input.

                              Thanks, Myles. Will have a chat with Dietmar on this.
                              Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

                              Comment

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