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  • A Comparison of Different Turntable Drive Systems

    http://brinkmann-usa.com/inhalt/en/t...ble_drives.pdf
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

  • #2
    I liked the Bardo when I heard it (DD) and thought it was more rhythmic compared to the Balance. Brinkmann makes both flavors but their preference is belt drive for their top 'table. I'm not drawing a conclusion from this one example, just wondering what trade offs they considered when they chose one over the other for their statement table.
    Simon Yorke + Zyx + B.M.C .> Soulution > Boulder > Magico

    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rob View Post
      I liked the Bardo when I heard it (DD) and thought it was more rhythmic compared to the Balance. Brinkmann makes both flavors but their preference is belt drive for their top 'table. I'm not drawing a conclusion from this one example, just wondering what trade offs they considered when they chose one over the other for their statement table.
      The motor of the Balance got upgraded about three years ago.

      Comment


      • #4
        When I was living with my old belt drives, I was always missing the drive and punch of my lowly DDs and the same from Idlers. It was only my current table that got me that despite being a belty.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JackD201 View Post
          When I was living with my old belt drives, I was always missing the drive and punch of my lowly DDs and the same from Idlers. It was only my current table that got me that despite being a belty.
          Depends on the "old belt drives" I guess. Back in the early 1980s, I was convinced that belt drive tables had better dynamics than DD tables. In fairness, none of the DD tables I heard were state of the art even in their day, but then neither were the belt drive tables. When AR brought their table back to market and I bought mine from Cambridge Audio with a Premier MMT arm, that table shamed some DD tables that some of my audiophile buddies owned in terms of dynamic range. I loved my SOTA Star Sapphire back in the days when I owned it and thought it had very good speed stability and dynamics. I felt the same way about my VPI TNT with SDS. I jumped ship a few years ago when I bought an SP-10 MKII table that Technics said the following about: "If 500 tone arms of 2g tracking force were placed on a record at the same time, the turntable would still maintain each rated speed." And yes, it has super stable speed and is very clean. After hearing several belt drive tables lately, I'm thinking the SP-10 is polite sounding and a tad boring compared to good belt drive tables. I currently have the entry level model of the VPI Avenger in for review and I have only had it for a week so far, but it has added fuel to the fire for whether belt or DD is the way to go for me at least. But, this must be taken in the context of not having heard the modern high-priced spread of DD tables that are on the market now.
          Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am no turntable designer, and when I read this, I wonder how a cartridge with a tracking force of 2gm can instantaneously slow down a spinning platter of 2kg (let alone 10kg) enough to suffer loss of dynamics without sloughing off the modulations within the groove of a piece of vinyl. Considering the forces created by angular momentum, it would at least rip the cantilever clear out of the body of the cartridge.

            There must be other forces and considerations. I once tried to hold a discussion at the home of a well-known audiophile after the Newport Show, but it turned out to be completely one-sided. I was looking forward to more discussions with A.J. but unfortunately, he passed away this year. I will sorely miss our spirited discussions.

            Comment


            • #7
              groove modulation (stylus drag/braking on musical peaks) is real. and until you hear a familiar pressing without it you don't realize cause and effect. when you eliminate it your body no longer cringes when the music gets busy and dynamic. listening is more fun and the percentage of the pressings and passages you enjoy expands. so it's a goal worth attaining.

              and if your system can do full justice to those large scale passages conquering this issue is all the more important.

              so your listening style, environment, and music choices can determine how significant this can be.....not that there are not benefits to dealing with this on all music.

              https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
                groove modulation (stylus drag/braking on musical peaks) is real. and until you hear a familiar pressing without it you don't realize cause and effect. when you eliminate it your body no longer cringes when the music gets busy and dynamic. listening is more fun and the percentage of the pressings and passages you enjoy expands. so it's a goal worth attaining.

                and if your system can do full justice to those large scale passages conquering this issue is all the more important.

                so your listening style, environment, and music choices can determine how significant this can be.....not that there are not benefits to dealing with this on all music.
                Did your SP-10 MKIII conquer stylus drag/braking on musical peaks? I would think the answer is yes just as I think it is yes for the SP-10 MKII as well. I'm not convinced that only DD tables can pull this off.
                Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Phono cartridges are transducers converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. If your table is powered by AC from your wall outlet, that is where the energy comes from to drive the cartridge. If you follow the energy path from the wall outlet to the cartridge, there are many steps which impact the power delivery. Following is a simple energy flow example:

                  AC wall outlet > power cable > motor PSU/speed control > AC or DC motor > belt or direct drive > platter speed (rotation) > mat or no mat > coupling to LP > walls of LP groove displaces stylus (distortions even at a fraction of a millionth of an inch is significant) > energy travels up cantilever > coils move in magnetic field > electrical energy created at phono cartridge output.

                  This is an oversimplified example but it illustrates many of the parts of energy transfer to the transducer. EVERY part preceding the transducer has an impact on the resulting quality, timing and dynamics (micro and macro) of the music.

                  Music only exists in time. Static measurements are meaningless.

                  But just because a platter is massive or is belt driven or direct drive, sound difference could be due to other things like resonance characteristics of the platter, its bearing, the motor/speed controller, bearing lubrication and temperature, set-up, LP/mat/platter interface and slippage, electrostatic fields, EMI, AC power quality, the phase of the moon, etc.
                  Speakers/Amps: Genesis G2.2 Jr with Powered Servo-Sub Bass, Genesis GR1440 Mono Amps, 5,000 watts total power
                  Preamp: SMc Audio VRE-1C Preamp (fully balanced inputs and output)
                  Phono 1: VPI Prime Signature Belt-Drive Turntable with 10” 3D Printed Uni-pivot Arm and Ortofon MC Windfeld Ti Phono Cartridge driving Lehmann Decade Phono Preamp
                  Phono 2: VPI HW-40 Direct-Drive Turntable with 12” 3D Printed Fat Boy Gimbal Arm and Ortofon MC Anna Diamond Phono Cartridge driving Genesis Gold Phono Preamp
                  R2R Tape: Studer A810 with Bridge Console
                  Digital: Battery Powered Laptop running software on SSD, Music Files on USB SSD, and playback by JRMC. USB interface to M2Tech Young DAC
                  Cables: Genesis Advanced Technologies/Absolute Fidelity Interface Interconnects, Speaker, Phono and Power
                  Power: Audio-Ultra Power System, IsoTek Super Titan Passive Power Conditioning for Amplifiers
                  Accessories: Custom Acrylic Equipment Stands, Klaudio Ultrasonic RCM

                  Comment


                  • Triode Pete
                    Triode Pete commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Joe - You are absolutely correct about the energy flow to the turntable. You cannot believe the difference a high quality power cord can make on a turntable. I have heard substantial improvements (not subtle) on VPI turntables when removing the stock power cord & adding a high quality one... I have a customer who is an electrical engineer and he was dumbfounded on the sonic improvement (better bass responses & better PRAT) when he replaced his stock power cord with a quality one on his SDS speed controller (AC to DC to AC) on his VPI deck. Even I was surprised when he informed me, and I was a "true believer" when I heard it on his system!

                    Cheers,
                    Pete

                • #10
                  Originally posted by mep View Post

                  Did your SP-10 MKIII conquer stylus drag/braking on musical peaks? I would think the answer is yes just as I think it is yes for the SP-10 MKII as well. I'm not convinced that only DD tables can pull this off.
                  Mark,

                  Merry Christmas!

                  before I owned the Dobbins SP-10 Mk3, I also owned a Dobbins SP-10 Mk2. and for sure, the Mk2 was good with eliminating groove modulation. in degrees, the Mk3 had more forward lean and energy.......but the Mk2 was no slouch in that department.

                  and my opinion is that at the top of the heap that belt-drive does deal with groove modulation very effectively to my ears when I hear them.....so we agree on that. it's hard without living with a turntable to understand what is causing what. groove modulation might sound similar to music feedback on peaks. unless you investigate you might not know which it is. and both can seem to be in the recording itself especially since our experiences tend to be moving up in quality of gear. so our only reference to some pressing might be with turntables which are not 100% truth sayers.

                  one needs a healthy sense of curiosity on what is going on.

                  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Mike, I am not saying that stylus drag/braking is not real. Having had the direct drive VPI Vanquish for a while, there are huge dynamics and bass resolution that I have not experienced before, and I have been thinking of the physics of this vexing problem for the past month.

                    I may not have been clear enough - by groove modulations, I mean the wiggles and squiggles in the groove that create the sound. The stylus tracks the groove modulations which are the analog/physical representation of the sound waveform. All I am saying is that the forces needed to slow down a 2kg or 10kg piece of spinning metal instaneously to reduce the dynamics of musical crescendos are of a magnitude that would pull the cantilever clear off the cartridge. We need to examine the record playing system as a whole and look at where else the physics of this can manifest.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by mep View Post

                      Depends on the "old belt drives" I guess. Back in the early 1980s, I was convinced that belt drive tables had better dynamics than DD tables. In fairness, none of the DD tables I heard were state of the art even in their day, but then neither were the belt drive tables. When AR brought their table back to market and I bought mine from Cambridge Audio with a Premier MMT arm, that table shamed some DD tables that some of my audiophile buddies owned in terms of dynamic range. I loved my SOTA Star Sapphire back in the days when I owned it and thought it had very good speed stability and dynamics. I felt the same way about my VPI TNT with SDS. I jumped ship a few years ago when I bought an SP-10 MKII table that Technics said the following about: "If 500 tone arms of 2g tracking force were placed on a record at the same time, the turntable would still maintain each rated speed." And yes, it has super stable speed and is very clean. After hearing several belt drive tables lately, I'm thinking the SP-10 is polite sounding and a tad boring compared to good belt drive tables. I currently have the entry level model of the VPI Avenger in for review and I have only had it for a week so far, but it has added fuel to the fire for whether belt or DD is the way to go for me at least. But, this must be taken in the context of not having heard the modern high-priced spread of DD tables that are on the market now.
                      I think drive is really just a part of the "dynamics" thing. We can consider other things like platter to vinyl interface when it comes to stylus drag too. Say with my HRX bass was more taught with the ring on. On my TW with the mat carbon side up bass was less punchy but had better highs, flip the mat, flip the results. I think the type of belt matters too. Low elasticity belts appear to help along with the bass, in the old days I remember people replacing belts with everything from dental floss to VHS tape. One thing for sure is that every single 301 or EMT I've heard has excellent low end drive. The TD124 softer. Could it be the belt driving the idler wheel? Maybe, but I can't be sure really.

                      I don't have an SP-10, just the plebe siblings the 1200 Mk2 and 1210 M5Gs, these have excellent mid bass but sadly is not refined anywhere else on the spectrum. It could be the platter but I also think the stock arms have something to do with it. Changes in mats can help with rumble a bit but for the worst sound possible from these use DJ slipmats. LOL. I ended up with the slipmats on an intermediate rubber substrate. Poor as the stock arms might be, thank the guys from Panasonic for providing VTA adjustment!

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Off all the various drive schemes, I believe that digitally controlled direct drive offers, depending on design and implementation, can be the best solution for speed control. A closed loop digital should provide for directly read speed of the platter at potentially very high sampling rates, acts directly on the platter with no intervening mechanical connection, and given sophisticated programing provides rapid response while minimizes hunting to a very minimal level.

                        There are not a lot of top tier direct drive tables on the market. The new Technics GAE 1200 is the least expensive of any I am aware of. The low price point likely due to the resources of a large corporation behind the development. But as time passes and technology advances, I suspect things will improve past what is possible with more "traditional" drive systems given equal quality of all the other turntable components. Whether prices will be equivalent remains to be seen.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Rust View Post
                          Off all the various drive schemes, I believe that digitally controlled direct drive offers, depending on design and implementation, can be the best solution for speed control. A closed loop digital should provide for directly read speed of the platter at potentially very high sampling rates, acts directly on the platter with no intervening mechanical connection, and given sophisticated programing provides rapid response while minimizes hunting to a very minimal level.

                          There are not a lot of top tier direct drive tables on the market. The new Technics GAE 1200 is the least expensive of any I am aware of. The low price point likely due to the resources of a large corporation behind the development. But as time passes and technology advances, I suspect things will improve past what is possible with more "traditional" drive systems given equal quality of all the other turntable components. Whether prices will be equivalent remains to be seen.
                          Brinkmann
                          NVS
                          Dobbins
                          VPI
                          Rockport (NLIP)
                          Grand Prix Monaco

                          Perhaps it's easier to design a belt or idler drive turntable?
                          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                          ________________________________________

                          -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                          -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            From my view a belt seems like a much simpler concept
                            a heavy plater with a air gap or berrijg that has a very low resistance. Hiw do they compare to direct drives in speed control ?
                            Has anyone tested or is there a way to test the record itself as it's made or after for its speed variations while being cut. Also has anyone tested various speed variations and listened to there effects ?
                            Who uses an air gap type berring ?
                            analog stuff.
                            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                            Dacs lampi various

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