Is The Turntable Market Becoming Saturated?

[MylesBAstor]

Why does it seem like everyone in the world is coming out with a new table with the boom in records? But just how many more companies can the market support? Or making a living selling 10 tables a year?

[Johnny Vinyl]

It goes to show that the vinyl sales boom is real and everyone wants a piece of the playback pie. Also remember, there are literally millions of 20/30/40 yr old TTs out there, which represents a potentially huge opportunity for sales. Not everyone is an audiophile or a DIYer. Eventually the market will dictate who stays and who goes.

[Rob]

the short answer is yes. Its confusing for the consumer jumping back into vinyl and especially first timers as history has shown us many of these cos. wont be around when the tide goes other way.

[Guest]

How many are retreads using the same tired technology of 30-50 years ago but with updated 'aesthetics' or over-bling?

[Rob]

old wine in new bottles?

David, I'm saying there has not been a lot - some yes - but not a lot of advance in the turntable market to improve on what was done in the past and taking down cost. The uber 'tables from the past have not seen improvement today equivalent to the improvement they offered. So what I'm "knocking" is the lack of inventiveness and the rate at which it seems to happen in turntable design/architecture today. I read more comments about turntable aesthetics than actual improvement. This not to say there are not a few manufacturers seeking to advance turntable performance - but their work is not what is saturating the market.

[david k]

We're both knocking the same group Tim. The way I see it turntable design peaked by late 70's and early 80's with the uber tables and much earlier in below SOTA categories. I find the analog market confusing today and not sure what I'd do if I was getting into vinyl today, if at all.

david

[david k]

TT manufacturers seem to be competing with digital companies these days, a new one almost everyday and sadly all with the same prevalent mentality of trying to out do one another with ridiculous gimmicks and over the top pricing! And Johnny is right there are thousands of tts, arms and cartridges floating around not to need any new production for years to come.

The trend I'm seeing that $10k front ends are considered budget these with hardly anything worth looking at in the sub $3k market unless you by used. Reality is that majority of the market is really sub $1k and no one that I know is making anything worthwhile. Denon's offering there isn't too bad but I can't think of anyone else making to compete with sub $1k digital front ends which kick ass today. How long will this fad last when in the mass market digital is sonically superior and software more accessible and abundant? I believe LP production itself will be the bottleneck that won't be resolved in the future, look at the cost of LPs vs digital offerings and how many are rejects.

david

[cpp]

I think Johnny is spot on, everyone wants a piece of the pie. I mean when you look at some of the manufacturers releasing TT, you ask yourself why , really !

And David notes the bottleneck in LP production. Its not cheap to produce a quality LP that supports a lot of the music the young crowd likes.

[mep]

I think Johnny is spot on, everyone wants a piece of the pie. I mean when you look at some of the manufacturers releasing TT, you ask yourself why , really !

And David notes the bottleneck in LP production. Its not cheap to produce a quality LP that supports a lot of the music the young crowd likes.

Some of the companies releasing turntables aren't really manufacturing them, or at least without lots of help from companies like VPI.

[cpp]

You know Johnny I just found " Built to Bryston’s specifications, the plinth, drive mechanism, motor, and platter are all sourced from Gold Note in Italy. GRW of Germany supplies the B7 titanium tonearm."

[Johnny Vinyl]

Thanks for the detective work ccp! I think it was their speakers I was thinking off.

[MylesBAstor]

And Clearaudio makes tables for a few companies.

[PeterA]

What does everyone think about the new Basis turntable recently shown in the LA show? It is incredibly expensive. Has anyone heard it and is there any new technology? I think the two areas of further potential improvements are in vibration management, i.e. drainage and isolation each addressing specific parts of the turntable, and not just mass loading, and in a truly high performance linear tracking arm which is reliable, does not give up anything in terms of bass performance and is extremely rigid and solid. I also like the idea of most adjustments happening at the headshell: VTA, azimuth, zenith. There may still be some gains to be had with material sciences.

[cpp]

PeterA Wasn't that the $150,000 table. I ask myself is there really a need for a $150,000 turntable. Can a person actually hear the difference in a $10k vs a $150K turntable where its a $140k hearing advantage ? As Jim Carey playing the Riddler noted; " Was that over the top? I can never tell.

[Rob]

What does everyone think about the new Basis turntable recently shown in the LA show? It is incredibly expensive. Has anyone heard it and is there any new technology? I think the two areas of further potential improvements are in vibration management, i.e. drainage and isolation each addressing specific parts of the turntable, and not just mass loading, and in a truly high performance linear tracking arm which is reliable, does not give up anything in terms of bass performance and is extremely rigid and solid. I also like the idea of most adjustments happening at the headshell: VTA, azimuth, zenith. There may still be some gains to be had with material sciences.

I saw and heard AJ's swan song the Transcendence, it was one of the best rooms at the show but Randy's rooms are always among the best. I think you need to ask the person that plonks down the required $115k as to whether its worth it. FWIW, I heard rooms I enjoyed as much or more that featured the entry level AMG deck the Giro, Vertere's entry level deck was seen and heard in at least three rooms and sounded superb in Brooks Berdan Ltds room with Jadis and Magico. The two Spiral Groove decks and the top end Thales where also in great sounding rooms.

I'd say ask that guy plonking down $115k in maybe 3-4 months after the plonk. Hopefully he'll have the ability to use it with at least a couple different tone arms.

[Rob]

It has the ability to accept two arms, besides the person that buys a $100k table probably has several others to play as well.

[PeterA]

PeterA Wasn't that the $150,000 table. I ask myself is there really a need for a $150,000 turntable. Can a person actually hear the difference in a $10k vs a $150K turntable where its a $140k hearing advantage ? As Jim Carey playing the Riddler noted; " Was that over the top? I can never tell.

Yes, that's the table. I don't know if there is a need for such an expensive table. One could ask the designer and client. Yes, a person can definitely hear the difference between a $10K table and one much more expensive, if the more expensive one is better designed for sonics. I clearly heard the difference between my SME Model 10/A and Model 30/12A. The latter cost about 4 times more and was well worth the added cost to me. Sonic improvements were significant in terms of noise floor, information retrieval, extension, and the ability to sound natural and more convincing. You would have to ask others if that is "over the top".

[Paul S]

Was the Basis really priced that high? Past tables of AJ's always seemed to me to be relatively sane money, not that I have owned one, but I know several who have and were very proud of them. I am struggling yet again to undertsand 'where the money goes'. I'd happily test it against my TT's and then question the $100k upcharge..

[Rob]

AJ actually sold a more expensive 'table the WOA, it was a cool $180k before production ceased.

[Paul S]

Rob, I didn't know about that one either. Truth is, this mony can buy for intance an Audi R8!

[Rob]

Paul, I'm with you. for me it'd be a GT3 RS (I'm a Porsche guy). I've been castigated on other 'boards for the mere suggestion the cost of high end audio is out of control, so I'll just stay with the facts

[MylesBAstor]

As long as we're throwing expensive tables around. The Jadis Thalie, then around $60k+ with this Transfig Proteus, really impressed me 3 years ago at CES. Designed by Pierre Rifaud of Micromega.

[cpp]

Myles is that a uni pivot arm design ?

[ashandger]

That's very interesting your positive views of the Jadis Thalie turntable as Peter Breuniger did a video of the Audiplan room at Munich this year that featured this turntable and Jadis amps as Audioplan are their distributor in Germany. Even on a YouTube video the sound is great compared to a number of other rooms he recorded. Change of speed requires a pulley change and 2nd half of the video features Vanessa Fernandes LP.

[MylesBAstor]

Yes it is a unipivot. I was surprised when I went back to my notes that they used a Transfig. Could have sworn they used an Air Tight Supreme.

[solypsa]

Market was saturated (from a true commercial standpoint) decades ago. When I bought my Neumann VMS70 (now sold) from a major label in the early 2000's they practically heaped extra gear on me just to get it out of the way. I have loved vinyl when it was ubiquitous, when it was a cult phenomena, when it was a DJ's tool, when it was cool again...you get the idea. What really catches me is how good it can sound. In a budget situation, on a top table/system. Man, cutting lacquer masters is a massive effort, but the results? It can be pretty amazing. Guess that keeps the game alive.

[kensell21]

If we are talking about someone new to vinyl going out and buying a turntable for the first time?
if it was me with no knowledge of turntables etc, I'd do some research first..
With enough effort, it wouldn't be hard to start with something like a Rega or similar.
The other option would be a second hand turntable..
And with the actual vinyl, there plenty used out there in the many Record stores..
If I found that I'd made a mistake doing this, not much many has been spent.

My own person journey started just with a Dual turntable, then went from there..
I did start buying new, going from the Dual to a Rega 3, then to a Michell Gyrodec.
From there, more research and the journey continued..
Getting value for money and joining a local online forum site gave me a reliable
place (like this site) to befriend other like minded people and a safe for sale site.
So I ended up with a SME 10 and a Garrard 401.
Both names that have a long history and will see me out..

As I am close to retirement, my focus is on purchasing vinyl..
Sure I'd be happy with a $150,000 turntable if I was giving one. 😀
But i would sell it and spend the money on vinyl!
But that's just me.