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  • High mass vs lightweight rack

    In the next few weeks I am setting up a table to support two tables side by side. My design will be high mass, what are your thoughts on lightweight vs high mass table racks?
    Marty

  • #2
    Originally posted by nc42acc View Post
    In the next few weeks I am setting up a table to support two tables side by side. My design will be high mass, what are your thoughts on lightweight vs high mass table racks?
    Rigidity would be my number one concern.

    If you look at what I consider the better stands, most are far from lightweight (Critical Mass, SRA, HRS). The lightest of the quartet might be Symposium. But FWIW, it seems that most stands work their best with some sort of platform under the equipment or turntable.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

    Comment


    • #3
      Lemme see. I live in the Pacific Rim of Fire and have a turntable the platter of which is as heavy as an amplifier. High mass please!

      Comment


      • #4
        In the next few weeks I am setting up a table to support two tables side by side. My design will be high mass, what are your thoughts on lightweight vs high mass table racks?
        Caution: this may be a crazy response to your straightforward question.

        Presumably you have something in mind asking about high mass vs lightweight. Aside from support, what's your goal for your table?

        From my angle, there seems to be two broad classes of audio rack/stand/support: those that are largely furniture pieces with some passing nod to isolation/vibration management, and those constructed with isolation/vibration management as a primary or key design goal. The latter tend to be more expensive with the greater design effort toward vibration management usually meaning more elaborate construction and fancier materials. Both aim to deliver requisite horizontal space with sufficient stability to cause faith in their ability to hold equipment.

        Was it Ivor T who at one time advocated for thin-legged lightweight tea tables for his Linn LP12 turntables? The open design Stillpoints racks that use suspension cables might be called light weight. (Or at least not oriented toward a massy solution.) The heavier weighted stands (all good ones mentioned by Myles) tend to include stuff like viscoelastic glues, layers of materials with different resonance characteristics, exotic foams, etc., such that their ability to re-direct or absorb vibration is more a function of such than their sheer bulk. I suspect materials used are as or more important than mass.

        If you're looking more at a table as a piece of furniture, I'll conjecture that one of the first rules of design and materials is not to let the rack itself act like a tuning fork. In a basic wood table design, the use of different woods with different resonance frequencies, say for legs and shelves, might help. If glue is involved, consider viscoelastic glue. Perhaps threaded inserts into the legs to accommodate spikes.

        Once arrived at the end point, it would be great if you could post a picture!

        Comment


        • #5
          This leg support system design to hold 5000lbs. Lead shot filled legs.


          2 each 60" x 30" maple butcher block tops 2 1/4" thick separated by a sheet of 3/4" 13 ply birch plywood. All layers isolated from each with a sheet of bituthene. Individual granite platforms for each table.

          Am I crazy?
          Marty

          Comment


          • Johnny Vinyl
            Johnny Vinyl commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes! :P (just kidding)

          • nc42acc
            nc42acc commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the vote of confidence John. Now did I take my meds this morning?

        • #6
          One thing for sure Marty, it will be a massive stand.
          Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

          Comment


          • #7
            This was my alternative choice.

            Marty

            Comment


            • Johnny Vinyl
              Johnny Vinyl commented
              Editing a comment
              I like the first one you posted better.

          • #8
            Marty- what kind of floor will this sit on? I had a devil of a time with a springy wooden floor using high mass, though I got it solved. I love the idea of industrial stuff that doesn't necessarily involve "audiophile" branded products, though I've found it necessary to 'accessorize' using those self-same audiophile branded products. Leveling the support frame is also separate from leveling the individual platforms on which particular components rest- in my case, with the air bearing arm, the table has to be perfectly level, and then slightly higher on the right front corner so the arm naturally tends to glide from outer rim to label center. And it's just a hair off perfectly level. The other thing was that I found isolation worked better- at least on my springy wooden floor, at the table leg bottoms, using a very massive old wooden prayer table- made of mahogany, I think (but not sure).
            I would love to get away from any floor stand for turntable altogether, but given weight, I think I'd need welded steel verticals and horizontals- I'm not going there yet---but if and when I construct a new room, I'm keeping this in mind as an alternative to worrying about a floor stand.

            Comment


            • #9
              The table will be placed on a perimeter wall of my house that the exterior wall is block and brick. Also a very overbuilt floor joist system in this room so I have a solid foundation. I forgot to mention the leg support system has heavy duty threaded levelers on each leg. Sometimes you just gotta be different.
              Marty

              Comment


              • #10
                Can we know what are the turntables? Let us hope that they do not need different types of racks!

                The worst sounding rack I have ever listened to was built with exclusively with 3" thick stone plates, used as vertical legs and a large platform in a double H structure - any system the owner would put on it would sound lifeless and boring. The speakers the were the Sonus Faber Extrema, a fantastic but biplolar speaker - it would move from great to miserable sounding very easily.
                My opinions rely on listening mainly to acoustical, non amplified music. I do not care about electronic music or listening to rock at stadium levels, but I enjoy Mahler and Shostakovitch.

                Comment


                • nc42acc
                  nc42acc commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I have found all stone racks, platforms, etc do not make for good audio. This is why I am using a combination of materials.

              • #11
                Good question.

                VPI Prime
                Pioneer PLX-1000
                Marty

                Comment


                • #12
                  Originally posted by tima View Post

                  Caution: this may be a crazy response to your straightforward question.

                  Presumably you have something in mind asking about high mass vs lightweight. Aside from support, what's your goal for your table?

                  From my angle, there seems to be two broad classes of audio rack/stand/support: those that are largely furniture pieces with some passing nod to isolation/vibration management, and those constructed with isolation/vibration management as a primary or key design goal. The latter tend to be more expensive with the greater design effort toward vibration management usually meaning more elaborate construction and fancier materials. Both aim to deliver requisite horizontal space with sufficient stability to cause faith in their ability to hold equipment.

                  Was it Ivor T who at one time advocated for thin-legged lightweight tea tables for his Linn LP12 turntables? The open design Stillpoints racks that use suspension cables might be called light weight. (Or at least not oriented toward a massy solution.) The heavier weighted stands (all good ones mentioned by Myles) tend to include stuff like viscoelastic glues, layers of materials with different resonance characteristics, exotic foams, etc., such that their ability to re-direct or absorb vibration is more a function of such than their sheer bulk. I suspect materials used are as or more important than mass.

                  If you're looking more at a table as a piece of furniture, I'll conjecture that one of the first rules of design and materials is not to let the rack itself act like a tuning fork. In a basic wood table design, the use of different woods with different resonance frequencies, say for legs and shelves, might help. If glue is involved, consider viscoelastic glue. Perhaps threaded inserts into the legs to accommodate spikes.

                  Once arrived at the end point, it would be great if you could post a picture!


                  Ray Shab's Arcici stands also used a suspension system like the Stillpoints. My friend got the Stillpoints and loves their stands.
                  Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                  Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                  ________________________________________

                  -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                  -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                  -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                  -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                  -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                  -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                  -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                  -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                  -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                  -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    Myles I despise the look of the Stillpoints stands. I do have a set of Ultra SS coming for my VR5 though.

                    Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post



                    Ray Shab's Arcici stands also used a suspension system like the Stillpoints. My friend got the Stillpoints and loves their stands.
                    Marty

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Marty - What does the bituthene do? Isn't that for waterproofing; does it have another function?

                      Comment


                      • nc42acc
                        nc42acc commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Yes it is a waterproofing membrane as its manufactured purpose but I found out how good it is at vibration dampening building speakers in the 80s. Not spongy and lossy like sorbothane.

                    • #15
                      Originally posted by microstrip View Post
                      Can we know what are the turntables? Let us hope that they do not need different types of racks!

                      The worst sounding rack I have ever listened to was built with exclusively with 3" thick stone plates, used as vertical legs and a large platform in a double H structure - any system the owner would put on it would sound lifeless and boring. The speakers the were the Sonus Faber Extrema, a fantastic but biplolar speaker - it would move from great to miserable sounding very easily.
                      so you make a stand as inert and 'massy' as possible and the result is that imparts "lifeless" quality. I guess I'm not getting it, what is the formula for a good sounding stand?

                      I
                      Simon Yorke S10 | My Sonic Lab Eminent GL | AcousticPlan PhonoMaster | Wadia X32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

                      "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

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