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  • Is Using an AC Power Cord, Interconnect or Speaker Cable ....

    to fine tune and put the finishing touches on the sound of your system really such a bad thing and so awful? Especially after everything else has been addressed and it's the final touch? To get that last couple of percent of performance or to bring everything into balance? Especially if you realize what you are trying to achieve and can easily change or reverse what you did if switching components?

    I kind of look at it like anti-depressants. I know many people argue that anti-depressants are over-prescribed but on the other hand have read equally compelling arguments that if you haven't won the genetic lottery and they allow you to function more effectively, what's wrong? (see Jonathan Haidt The Happiness Hypothesis.) Same thing goes for systems. We can't be dogmatic and should use everything at our fingertips to get the best sound we can out of our systems.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

  • #2
    Myles not a bad thing or wrong in any way but it can be a very costly finale touch as you put it.
    A few years back I was in the AR room with vandersteen speakers gear totaled 85,000 the wire totaled 118,000 that is a big touch for most of us.
    With how system depended wire can be and the cost it may not be a bad thing to do but WOW it can be high dollars.

    Comment


    • #3
      I always thought that's what high end audio is all about. Spend as much as you can even if it means the wife has to work a third job and the kids can only go to CCNY.😁Yes I'm kidding but we all spend money for a small incremental increase in performance. But it isn't about one small change, it's about the collective change from all the small ones which can be quite big.
      TW Acustic TT with Ref motor & controller; Tri-Planar Arm; Ortofon Windfeld-Ti Cartridge, Harmonix-Combak platter mat & weight; PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp; KLAudio Ultrasonic Record Cleaner.

      Bluesound Vault-2 Music Server & Streamer

      VTL 6.5 preamp Series II
      Pass Labs 150.8 Amp

      Piega C711 Loudspeakers

      Symposium Osiris Rack; Symposium Platforms and Roller Blocks plus grade 2.5 Balls

      Acoustic Revive RR-888 Low Frequency Pulse Generator, Synergistic Research 12 UEF SE Line Conditioner, Level 3 HC AC Cord and Level 3 power cords, Synergistic Carbon fiber wall plates, Synergistic Research Orange Outlet, Furutech NCF Booster Braces, Audio Art Ref IC, MIT Oracle IC, synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria Level 3 Balanced ICs, Synergistic Research Euphoria Level 3 Speaker Cables, Synergistic Research Cable Risers.

      Sennheiser HDV 650 Headphone Amp; Sennheiser HD800s Headphones.

      Comment


      • #4
        Is Using an AC Power Cord, Interconnect or Speaker Cable .... 09-24-2016, 05:45 PM

        to fine tune and put the finishing touches on the sound of your system really such a bad thing and so awful?

        If a system is made from layers of finely tuned coloration corrections on top of each other, then what's one more?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Garth View Post
          Myles not a bad thing or wrong in any way but it can be a very costly finale touch as you put it.
          A few years back I was in the AR room with vandersteen speakers gear totaled 85,000 the wire totaled 118,000 that is a big touch for most of us.
          With how system depended wire can be and the cost it may not be a bad thing to do but WOW it can be high dollars.
          I don't disagree at all, but it doesn't have to be. There are plenty of examples of more pocketbook-friendly cables out there, so why not take a chance on some of those. People with the more finely-tuned higher-end systems have a tendency to discount the lower-priced cables simply because they are lower-priced. Oh, and I mean lower-priced, not cheap.
          Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

          Comment


          • #6
            No one I know stopped at "Fine Tuning" when it comes to cables, generally it becomes a lot more obsessive!

            david
            Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
            Distribution: NEODIO

            Special Sales: van den Hul
            Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

            Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
            http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
            http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

            Comment


            • #7
              the real point is when does fine tuning actually stop. When your bank account is depleted, or is it when your hearing fades as you get older and then you can't hear any further improvement by the costly enhancements you continue to make and you end up chasing that ghost in sound that resides within your system..
              Chris
              ----------------------------------------------------------------
              Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

              Comment


              • Garth
                Garth commented
                Editing a comment
                Like all games it stops when you run out of money to play The flip side is new gear wire or set up renews your intrest and you play more Music. Maybe we just need to clean a few connectors and play some more music. Just a thought

            • #8
              So it's interesting--in contrast to what I've often seen--that members don't have an issue with this practice. Certainly this type of fine tuning, certain fits into the concept of synergy.
              Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
              Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
              ________________________________________

              -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
              -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
              -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
              -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
              -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
              -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
              -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
              -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
              -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
              -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by MylesBAstor
                Is Using an AC Power Cord, Interconnect or Speaker Cable to fine tune and put the finishing touches on the sound of your system really such a bad thing and so awful?
                Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
                So it's interesting--in contrast to what I've often seen--that members don't have an issue with this practice. Certainly this type of fine tuning, certain fits into the concept of synergy.
                Originally posted by tima
                If a system is made from layers of finely tuned coloration corrections on top of each other, then what's one more?
                My comment was written in complete sarcasm.

                I have this notion that cables and cords should be color-free. Perhaps 'neutral' is a better word. Here's the 60-cycle sine wave - see that Mr. Power Cord? - that's your job, on demand whenever the power supply of that funny looking box over there wants it. No cadenzas from you. Got it?

                I know that doesn't match-up to reality.

                But the idea that I buy these expensive gears - carefully selected of course - but then need to use some tuning device to connect them and correct or fine tune their 'synergy', well its somehow discomforting to my audiophile snowflake sensibilities.

                There is no neutral, I know. Everything happens within a context. But I still have this vain notion that my stereo should reproduce a performance-within-its-context and do so as close to how I would hear it if I was there. There are lot's of viewpoints about the goal of the audiophile and the electro-mechanical negotiations that take place between the transducers at the performance on one end and my speakers at the other. Maybe I'm hoping for fewer variables but the idea that the signal wires aren't changing frequency balances is appealing to me. Power cords are a little different - I tend to think of them as extensions of the component.

                On the other hand, it is true that certain wires deliver greater listening satisfaction than others and if I knew to just add this one other wire, just this one, well everything will lock into place. Yeah I'd at least try it. But if 6 months later I needed to correct that final correction it would piss me off. "I just dropped in to see what condition my synergy was in ...."

                Which goes to making me think, would we better off if, say, Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research or D'agnostino or Lamm had their own wires with the guarantee that their gear operates maximally optimally none-better if you use those. RalphK might say, well if you get your circuits and connectors and cables wired correctly, there is no need for fine tuning with wire. I can't help thinking maybe he's right.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
                  So it's interesting--in contrast to what I've often seen--that members don't have an issue with this practice. Certainly this type of fine tuning, certain fits into the concept of synergy.
                  Not exactly Myles; I think that tuning a system with cables is a really bad idea but people can do what they want. I have yet to hear an audiophile power cord that doesn't introduce extreme coloration washing over everything else.

                  david
                  Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
                  Distribution: NEODIO

                  Special Sales: van den Hul
                  Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

                  Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
                  http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by david k View Post

                    Not exactly Myles; I think that tuning a system with cables is a really idea but people can do what they want. I have yet to hear an audiophile power cord that doesn't introduce extreme coloration washing over everything else.

                    david
                    I think you left out something? "Bad?" Or am I misunderstanding?

                    I know what you are getting at. I went through a ton load of power cords with my amplifiers before I found one that was better than a stock cord. And yes, it does also have a sound too but overall, it is still better than the stock PC. So many PCs just seem to constrict dynamics. It also seems that you can get away with some PCs with low powered amplifier but once you start talking large wattage amplifiers, the number of acceptable PCs drops dramatically.

                    I do really like Gary's PCs with my phono and preamplifier.

                    Curiously, I never found an after market PC to improve the sound of my Martin-Logan speakers.
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                      I think you left out something? "Bad?" Or am I misunderstanding?

                      I know what you are getting at. I went through a ton load of power cords with my amplifiers before I found one that was better than a stock cord. And yes, it does also have a sound too but overall, it is still better than the stock PC. So many PCs just seem to constrict dynamics. It also seems that you can get away with some PCs with low powered amplifier but once you start talking large wattage amplifiers, the number of acceptable PCs drops dramatically.

                      I do really like Gary's PCs with my phono and preamplifier.

                      Curiously, I never found an after market PC to improve the sound of my Martin-Logan speakers.
                      Yes, bad was missing.

                      I spent a long time looking for a basic cord that does absolutely nothing sonically and if it does I can't hear it, never again will I go for any cord or wire that does things. I don't see the problem with high powered amps 14 gauge is enough even for 500 watts.

                      david
                      Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
                      Distribution: NEODIO

                      Special Sales: van den Hul
                      Industry Representation: Lamm, Kharma OLS Speakers, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformer, Venta Airwasher

                      Unique Items: Vintage Horn Speakers
                      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...stening-room-1
                      http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...earfield-setup

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by david k View Post

                        Yes, bad was missing.

                        I spent a long time looking for a basic cord that does absolutely nothing sonically and if it does I can't hear it, never again will I go for any cord or wire that does things. I don't see the problem with high powered amps 14 gauge is enough even for 500 watts.

                        david
                        Well I just found that finding a power cord that didn't compress dynamics was much easier with a low powered rather than a high powered amplifier.
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                        -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

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                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Where is your line between these?

                        • MylesBAstor
                          MylesBAstor commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Great question without a solid answer. I still feel that what I am selecting is just swapping colorations. That said, the stock cord on the whole is just too thin so chose something a PC just a little fuller. Yet I know that the PC isn't totally linear but it errs just a smidge on the warm side with just a little midbass emphasis. But that bloom sounds wonderful on cellos.

                          But talking power wise, it seems to me that the dynamics of amps say under 100 or 75 wpc (or maybe a little less) are less affected by the choice of power cords. Is that number cast in stone? Obviously not.

                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Agree 100% about swapping colorations. The larger influence of the power cord, imo, relates to its relative reactance and ability deliver to deliver on demand - which I take is your point above, re dynamics .

                          I haven't used any amp greater than 250 wpc. I do find the PC impact to vary by amp. Some manufacturers pay some attention to power conditioning in the internal designs. On the other hand I found Atma-Sphere amps less affected by which power cord and I'm pretty sure they did no conditioning.

                      • #14
                        I would say yes, cables can be used to color the sound in ways that could be either good or bad. I prefer to use cables as a means of "seasoning" things. Not in a dramatic way, but just a slight 'this' or 'that'. If a cable changes what you already like and want too much, then uh... no go. In end get the system where you want it to be and then try different cables to seaons to one's taste.
                        Dave Clark
                        Editor and Publisher, Positive Feedback
                        www.positive-feedback.com

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                        • MylesBAstor
                          MylesBAstor commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Kind of like plastic surgery. If it makes you feel better, there's nothing wrong with it. Just when it becomes and obsession and out of control!

                      • #15
                        Originally posted by david k View Post

                        Yes, bad was missing.

                        I spent a long time looking for a basic cord that does absolutely nothing sonically and if it does I can't hear it, never again will I go for any cord or wire that does things. I don't see the problem with high powered amps 14 gauge is enough even for 500 watts.

                        david
                        Hi David,

                        First off...you have an awesome system and have no doubt spent considerable time putting it together. Can you explain to me when or how you found a cable that did nothing sonically to affect the system. I say when as you likely started with the original cables (maybe not) and then tried different ones. How do you now that what you have isn't already adding something? I know I'm probably not explaining myself properly, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to get at.
                        Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

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