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  • Se or bal

    over last week end I moved my stuff Around as my stuff was behind my speakers and about 20 feet or more away and I could not even see the display. Even with my server and iPad as control it still had its issues.
    So in moving things around I needed about 50 foot cables from my dac preamp to cross over control box and 25 feet to amps from there. As the amps are right behind each speaker tower
    So I bought and average set of rca interconnects.
    After I hooked it up my sound for bad
    Clear and clean but dull to say the least
    This drove me crazy as to why and was I even hearing what I thought . So moved the stuff back just to see and all the greatness came back.
    Now I was confused even more than before as I had the proof I was not crazy. How much of what we do or think we hear may or may not be real ? I always wonder of what I think I hear is so and some times have a bit of regret . After all although I am a lisc electrical contractor and electrical engineer it can help but mostly makes me an agnostic of many aspects of this hobby we dwell in.
    So what I did is email someone who I can truly count on for an honest answer
    My answer was surprising and good at the same time.
    It seems SE cannot go the distance that bal can. Now I know most here may know this and even though I am a life long audio head dude this I did not know.
    It seems if you go beyond 6 feet or so it does not matter how much you spend. So I bought what I needed and adaptors simple ones to convert SE to BAL and back. The music was back maybe 90 percent. The rest can be had with better grade SE to bal conversion interconnects. I just thought I would share this to help
    Others like me who love the magic of great mauic but honestly do not always know how to achieve it. . My next step is getting my cross over modded to fully balanced
    It's being mailed to Colorado tomorrow
    Over all it's comming together more each time I play
    Al.
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    balanced is much better for long runs and less susceptible to interference

    Comment


    • #3
      sounds like you're using ICs that are too high in capacitance. The tell tale signs are rolled off highs and its noticeable. Find a good twin-axial cable like Mogami or Canare (pro audio cable used for balanced microphones), Mogami has the lower capacitance of the two. Balanced lines give you greater immunity from RFI and a 6 db bump in gain. its a fallicy to say you MUST use balanced lines for long runs, as long as the input impedance of the 'load' is a factor 10x higher than the source impedance you won't roll off anything.
      Last edited by Rob; 04-20-2016, 09:03 PM.
      Simon Yorke S10 | My Sonic Lab Eminent GL | AcousticPlan PhonoMaster | Wadia X32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | LTA ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

      "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Rob View Post
        sounds like you're using ICs that are too high in capacitance. The tell tale signs are rolled off highs and its noticeable. Find a good twin-axial cable like Mogami or Canare (pro audio cable used for balanced microphones), Mogami has the lower capacitance of the two. Balanced lines give you greater immunity from RFI and a 6 db bump in gain. its a fallicy to say you MUST use balanced lines for long runs, as long as the input impedance of the 'load' is a factor 10x higher than the source impedance you won't roll off anything.
        Good suggestion! The Mogami won't break the bank and sounds fine; I had a 30ft run of Mogami PA-02. I'm vaguely recalling it's silver coated copper, but memory there is dim. It may be a wee-teeny bit rolled off in the highs but you'll spend a small fortune at those lengths to better its sonics. Just make sure its wired correctly. I prefer balanced. Al, you might want to drop a note to Ralph Karsten at Atma-Sphere to see what (if any) brands he might recommend.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks all for the replies. The mogami was the one suggested to me. They sound alamost as good as SE interconnects that are only 3 feet. The microphones ones is the kind. My situation then was to convert back and forth my 10 or so is lost here I figure. Now Henson or even flex connects by McCormack will cure this.
          Although I am getting the cross over made balanced and my external low pass filter as well I still have my SE lampi so I will need at least one set of good SE to balance. Jenkins are cheap about 300 or so for a pair. The flex are about 2K. But according to my friend it's top shelf. For now I use a balanced analog input on msb dac and a set of SE to bal cables short like 2 feet silver
          I was never a fan of bal over SE and felt it was just a marketing ploy in this hobby as there is so many. But I now think different. I will not redo my lampi head dac to balanced as it just got back and loaded with the latest updates I love it. And with the new eml globe 45 special editions it's a touch more neutral than the msb is
          So over all no loss.
          Thanks so much for input in this. My brain and ears are happy.
          My mid tweeter amps are aragons 8008BB. any thoughts on amps to try out. I am thinking of Paul's new mono blocks the bhk ones. They have a 30 day return policy. Second is goldmund they are a fast amp. Any thoughts here without going insane please.
          Thanks in advance
          analog stuff.
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
          Dacs lampi various

          Comment


          • #6
            Mogami gold is the kind I used
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
            Dacs lampi various

            Comment


            • #7
              Redco Audio will cut cables to your specified length and let you pick the connectors. Recommended.

              http://www.redco.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks
                analog stuff.
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                Dacs lampi various

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                  over last week end I moved my stuff Around as my stuff was behind my speakers and about 20 feet or more away and I could not even see the display. Even with my server and iPad as control it still had its issues.
                  So in moving things around I needed about 50 foot cables from my dac preamp to cross over control box and 25 feet to amps from there. As the amps are right behind each speaker tower
                  So I bought and average set of rca interconnects.
                  After I hooked it up my sound for bad
                  Clear and clean but dull to say the least
                  This drove me crazy as to why and was I even hearing what I thought . So moved the stuff back just to see and all the greatness came back.
                  Now I was confused even more than before as I had the proof I was not crazy. How much of what we do or think we hear may or may not be real ? I always wonder of what I think I hear is so and some times have a bit of regret . After all although I am a lisc electrical contractor and electrical engineer it can help but mostly makes me an agnostic of many aspects of this hobby we dwell in.
                  So what I did is email someone who I can truly count on for an honest answer
                  My answer was surprising and good at the same time.
                  It seems SE cannot go the distance that bal can. Now I know most here may know this and even though I am a life long audio head dude this I did not know.
                  It seems if you go beyond 6 feet or so it does not matter how much you spend. So I bought what I needed and adaptors simple ones to convert SE to BAL and back. The music was back maybe 90 percent. The rest can be had with better grade SE to bal conversion interconnects. I just thought I would share this to help
                  Others like me who love the magic of great mauic but honestly do not always know how to achieve it. . My next step is getting my cross over modded to fully balanced
                  It's being mailed to Colorado tomorrow
                  Over all it's comming together more each time I play
                  Al.

                  Its not so much the cables as to the circuit design of the products. In general balanced designs have more voltage output on the audio outputs thus able to send the signal further than a single ended design. Basically signal transmission is much more robust and thus can be sent over longer distances the design of the xlr cables and connectors help reject noise too. I much prefer proper dual differential balanced designs and many bits in my system are designed that way, however there is an increase in cost with separate left and right audio circuits, everything doubled up. Some argue that se designs that are generally simpler are better, but as in all things implementation is everything.
                  Main System: Sources - Digital - Moon Andromeda CDP, Esoteric P5/D5 SACDP, AMR DP777 DAC, Dell PC. Analogue - SME Model 20, Graham Phantom 1.5, Ortofon 7500, Technics 1200 (heavily modified), Triplanar 7, VDH Gold, Revox B77 2, various analogue tuners. Amplification - BAT VK52se pre, Passlabs Xono, Music Reference RM200 mk1, BAT VK75. Speakers - Anthony Gallo Ref 3.5. Tables - Clearlight Audio. Cables - Altlas, Audience, Analysis +, Wireworld, XLO. Mains -Dedicated Spur only.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    IME, and I'm hardly an expert in the matter, it depends a lot on the equipment being linked. If the gear is differential, I prefer running balanced cables. If not, SE is probably as good, if not better. Just IMHO.
                    Source: Marantz SA-7S1 (modded); Amplifier: Coda S12.5 stereo amplifier (modded); Speakers: JENA Labs Studio Reference; Cabling and power conditioning: JENA Labs, Dussun; Subwoofer: Rythmik 15" with DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 EQ; Isolation: SRA Craz rack, SRA Ohio Class base under source, SRA VR bases under amplifier and Dussun regenerator

                    Comment


                    • Quint
                      Quint commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Whoops, I basically repeated--though not as articulately--what Spectral said above. Sorry about that!

                  • #11
                    I tend to prefer Single-End.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Sometimes I've wondered what a died- in-the-wool single-ender like CJ would sound like if they used balanced circuitry. Would the character of their units fundamentally change? Or put differently, outside the claimed "simplicity" does a designer's sonic goals influence whether he chooses balanced-diff versus single-ended circuit?

                      Comment


                      • MylesBAstor
                        MylesBAstor commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Yeah remind me I am a dinosaur in more than one way. 🤣 SE, vinyl and tape.

                    • #13
                      I can say in dacs it changes the sound
                      in Amps for me be it input or headphone output many claim yes but I hear nothing but volume changes.
                      This if leveled off using my iPhone concluded no such changes.
                      The dacs were tube style or solid state
                      the chages were not in tone but in staging for me.
                      Consider the most expensive amps and preamps were not balanced until more recently I think.
                      Now interconnects I have not a clue except for what I hear
                      analog stuff.
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                      Dacs lampi various

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        #12.1

                        MylesBAstor commented
                        04-09-2017, 09:27 PM

                        Yeah remind me I am a dinosaur in more than one way. 🤣 SE, vinyl and tape.
                        ah yes, Jonathan Richman and The Modern Lovers ... just for you! :-)



                        or here

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACKZ10BrSwk


                        (heh - I have the album)

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Wonder why recording engineers use miles of the stuff (XLR) ahead of what we listen to?...
                          Happy Listening: 1100sq modestly lively: Brinkmann Balance w/RöNT II PS, HRS, Reed P3-12, Miyajima Zero, Graham Phantom III, DynaVector Te Kaitora Rua, Avid Acutus SP, SME V w/Kondo fairyhair silver litz, Lyra Kleos, Linn Sondek LP12 w/Ittok LVII, Nakamichi ZX-7, SCD-XA5400ES, Aesthetix Rhea Signatures, Nordost TYR Norse 2 ICs, Silent Source Music Ref/Shunyata/Elrod EPS-3 Sign mains, Atma-Sphere MP1 & MA1 Mk.3.4 OTL Silver Edition monoblocks, Coincident PREt, PS Audio Premiere, Yamamoto racks, SMARTractor, REL S812 (pair), Yamamoto racks

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