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Have We Thrown the Baby Out With the Bathwater?

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  • #31
    I call it "The Sonic Spectacular Syndrome ". They are good at finding the spatial details in the recording studio and the sound field is very large. The warmth and inner detail that I love sometimes gets sacrificed.

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    • #32
      Maybe its our age. Our hearing starts to go, meaning things we hear are not what they used to be so we change our gear. . Who knows,
      Chris
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
      Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

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      • #33
        Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
        I've been wondering lately whether we've lost a little of that olde midrange magic in our quest for increased neutrality and decreased colorations? God knows audiophiles suffered through that decade of the '90s of hyper resolution where so many components were etched, cold and mechanical sounding. Yes, we've moved past that period but still every so often there's that product (s) that come through the system--in this case the Kondo amps, the Charisma cartridges or Transparent Audio cables--that remind my ears that neutrality is a careful balancing act. These products just have that little extra midrange palpability and presence like one hears live.
        Are we talking about transducers or amplification?

        I think it is pretty easy in today's world of available materials and attention to detail to build a neutral, "un-etched" amplifier (pre or power). Given enough budget you can make that product fulfill the truth and delivering what is on the program material with all the body and minimal distortion that will lead to the things we seek out as music lovers. We have enough time in the study of materials and limited circuit topologies that truly exist to be able to make truly neutral amplification paths if we wish to pay for it in order to deliver the warmth and body if it exists.

        This is assuming the streamer, DAC, transport is up to the task. Analog components are subject to vagaries in set up and environment.

        Speakers are a different issue: full range or not, complex crossovers with phase anomalies, Line source , horns, electrostatics..... they are a pallet of the designer's perception of reality. We can never get everything- I think that is true in loudspeakers. There are the market considerations too, different markets ask for different forms of the truth and the designers may subjugate themselves to this in order to survive and make a living.

        With speakers especially I think you build to your philosophy more than anything else and that philosphy can be as varied as any colour of the rainbow. Think Audio Note , Kondo etc. for example of a total system based on a philosphy of perception. None of them are real regardless of what the do well but at least they approach it from a system point of view.

        We haven't talked about room interactions yet ...


        Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
        Brinkmann La Grange & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point ,FR64S, Brinkmann 12.1 , .Koetsu Jade Platinum,Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
        Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
        Pre-Amps:Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
        Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2
        Otari 5050BXII, DeHavilland 222

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post

          I have a copy of that album. Many years ago I brought it to an audio society meeting and played it without any introduction other than "I think it's pretty well recorded." It was amusing how long it took for someone to comment on the musicianship on display

          https://youtu.be/NySAbB2JLII
          It's quite amusing to see how long it takes one to figure out what's wrong with the picture on the cover of that album.
          Analog: Forsell Air Reference, Symphonic Line RG-8; VPI Prime Signature, Transfiguration Proteus, Transfiguration Phoenix S, VAS Nova Signature, VAS Nova Mono
          Digital: Mac mini 6,2 with YFS PS-12M LPS; Exogal Comet Plus, Exogal Ion PowerDAC
          Electronics: Aurorasound Vida, Channel D Lino C; Merrill Cara, Gryphon XT MC; Merrill Thor, Gryphon M-100 Mkii
          Cables: Morrow, Gryphon interconnects; YFS USB cable; Morrow, XLO, Channel D phono cables; Gryphon speaker cables

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          • #35
            Two right hands lol. The hand caught my eye as it seemed to large too.
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
            Dacs lampi various

            Comment


            • #36
              Have We Thrown the Baby Out With the Bathwater? I've always liked that description. When changing a component, I always ask myself is there an improvement or is there just a change in sound? Am I making progress? Many times it's one step forward and one step back, just different sound and a lateral move.

              Sometimes its one step forward and two steps back, a negative change. This to me is the worst case scenario where the change fails to "do no harm" and throws the baby out with the bath water. One area where I hear this a lot is with active power filters and power re-generators. I have not heard any of these devices at any price that did not alter the system in a negative way. In many cases, the music is killed off and what is left is a homogenized facsimile. Most systems are better off without them IMHO, the sound may be more crude, but retain the musical message. This is but one example. As usual YMMV.

              Every component change seems to have trade-offs. Curing one problem creates others. In the end is it better not to change/upgrade the device? Does the system lose the musical message? Do you still have an emotional connection? It can be a delicate balancing act which can easily fall to one side or the other. For me it's much more than mid-range issues, it involves full frequency density of information, noise floor, timing, etc. As HP would say it is the gestalt of the system!



              Comment


              • #37
                Now my hope is I can add something to this great topic.
                A few thoughts and views.
                My setup in speakers was designed to be real lol the designer laid claims to this day of attending weekly non amped live musical sessions.
                There is another person In a another forum who says the same. He also records and hates most of all recordings done and In a remark he says what is recorded is fake and nothing like real. Myles maybe you can expand this thought in another post as your writing will
                be much better than my ramblings.

                I asked him to send me one of his recordings he loved.
                He did and if I tell you it was horrible no dynamics and had little musicality to it. It was flat. Now this puts back into this topic I like ribbons and this design gives me the ques that please my brain. Arnie of infinity who made them did so to his love.

                Now As i own two sets speakers and 6 flagship headphones and a few Amps for them and a dac that rolls many many tubes. Having such a barn full
                of sound scapes. I can say what we like is our own and if you find ones who like it they are just like you.
                In posting on other forums reg tube rolling in my dacs
                I had keen insite to just how many views and there duties.
                Ina simple gernalization in tube sound. The spectrum is as follows
                101d most analytic of the tubes. Yielding extreme clarity but less weight bad for poor stuff great on great and does classical very well.

                6A3 a great headphone tube more of a 101d but not linear
                as it's mid centric and who knows what else

                45 a true middle ground tube that has become one of my favorites as it has more weight to it. It still shines.

                Last is a 300 b a weighty tube with a slightly bloated bass
                now these comments are in a dac. Not an amp so sounds are not as some may feel. My point is having so many variables I have some music just sounds better to me in certain setups be it headphones or speakers.
                Given this as I move twards weight I loose details
                as I move away from fast and thin I get closer to musical.
                For me and I'll bet many ,we need a certain amount of weight or note decay what you guys call it. But you need it to have music not sound playing.

                Lastly having gone to live unpamped events for me music is not warm at all yet some want this
                it's very dynamic and hurts at times
                it's bright and I don't like all the notes or instruments
                playing it at times
                Its not deep in bass nor clean and clear if where it is not dampened a bit.
                What I like is individual I feel we have each other to offer advice but we are mostly alone when we play our music and also when friends are over unless they are one of us crazy never compleltly happy audio people

                I have had a few friends over who played live in my place
                I like my stuff much better than there right there live and there live has little to do with what I like nor does my system sound like it.
                Please excuse my ramblings and I hope I added to this great topic
                analog stuff.
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                Dacs lampi various

                Comment


                • Dr.Ears
                  Dr.Ears commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The Raytheon CK-5694, which I have referred to many times is the best NOS tube, I have ever found. They offer so much resolution and transparency that I had to roll them out, when listening to my sixties rock collection. Any form of digital effects also sounded awful with these tubes rolled in. I bought my first 10 tubes for 10 each and sold my last three NOS pairs for $1,000 a pair to a guy, who was having a special amp built to take these. They featured a non-standard octal pin-out, which required an adapter. I went out of my way to ensure the guy, he was getting NOS NIB tubes. The original boxes had the pins sticking out of the bottom of the boxes, so I tested them without ever taking them out of their original boxes! This is the tube OEM's need to try and duplicate for drivers.

              • #38
                Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                I'll throw out another one: 15 ips reel-to-reel tape. It has both the needed richness and delineation.

                I think the ZYX cartridge also has that magic in the mids. Maybe the Air Tight Supreme too?

                Another extreme amp with that midrange magic: WAVAC. On the right speaker.
                I recall hearing the Air Tight Supreme is Dave Wilson's choice.

                Comment


                • #39
                  Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
                  Have We Thrown the Baby Out With the Bathwater? I've always liked that description. When changing a component, I always ask myself is there an improvement or is there just a change in sound? Am I making progress? Many times it's one step forward and one step back, just different sound and a lateral move.

                  Sometimes its one step forward and two steps back, a negative change. This to me is the worst case scenario where the change fails to "do no harm" and throws the baby out with the bath water. One area where I hear this a lot is with active power filters and power re-generators. I have not heard any of these devices at any price that did not alter the system in a negative way. In many cases, the music is killed off and what is left is a homogenized facsimile. Most systems are better off without them IMHO, the sound may be more crude, but retain the musical message. This is but one example. As usual YMMV.

                  Every component change seems to have trade-offs. Curing one problem creates others. In the end is it better not to change/upgrade the device? Does the system lose the musical message? Do you still have an emotional connection? It can be a delicate balancing act which can easily fall to one side or the other. For me it's much more than mid-range issues, it involves full frequency density of information, noise floor, timing, etc. As HP would say it is the gestalt of the system!


                  Reg your comment of power cleaning products is interesting
                  that fact they do make changes to me means they are working weather you like what you hear is choice.
                  I do like music less refined at times too. Of a few i tried the is audio I love but I don't use it on Amps for speakers only headphones. I do use them on front end and video
                  the improvements there are notable. Only my msb has no change I can here. If you did try the ps audio. Line did you try the power settings there is a few and they do make changes as well. A common is multi wave with 6 selected but there is a many there and signwaves as well.
                  No power cord I ever tried did anything like a regen does.
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
                    Have We Thrown the Baby Out With the Bathwater? I've always liked that description. When changing a component, I always ask myself is there an improvement or is there just a change in sound? Am I making progress? Many times it's one step forward and one step back, just different sound and a lateral move.

                    Sometimes its one step forward and two steps back, a negative change. This to me is the worst case scenario where the change fails to "do no harm" and throws the baby out with the bath water. One area where I hear this a lot is with active power filters and power re-generators. I have not heard any of these devices at any price that did not alter the system in a negative way. In many cases, the music is killed off and what is left is a homogenized facsimile. Most systems are better off without them IMHO, the sound may be more crude, but retain the musical message. This is but one example. As usual YMMV.

                    Every component change seems to have trade-offs. Curing one problem creates others. In the end is it better not to change/upgrade the device? Does the system lose the musical message? Do you still have an emotional connection? It can be a delicate balancing act which can easily fall to one side or the other. For me it's much more than mid-range issues, it involves full frequency density of information, noise floor, timing, etc. As HP would say it is the gestalt of the system!


                    How about solving one issue and creating another? That's not good science.
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #41
                      Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
                      ...

                      Sometimes its one step forward and two steps back, a negative change. This to me is the worst case scenario where the change fails to "do no harm" and throws the baby out with the bath water. One area where I hear this a lot is with active power filters and power re-generators. I have not heard any of these devices at any price that did not alter the system in a negative way. In many cases, the music is killed off and what is left is a homogenized facsimile. Most systems are better off without them IMHO, the sound may be more crude, but retain the musical message. This is but one example. As usual YMMV....
                      My experience as well. Our own systems spit back so much noise onto themselves that internal passive filtering nears necessity, be that on the power cord or distribution box or sub-panel. Caelin Gabriel's work in this area near conclusively demonstrates the value of passive filtration.

                      Comment


                      • #42
                        https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/144/index.html
                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                        -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                        Comment


                        • #43
                          A member on another forum is giving up his T+A for a McIntosh setup. He is very upfront that the T+A is more clear but he likes the rich warm McIntosh glowing sound. I believe he said the McIntosh is very easy to enjoy.
                          PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI Paramount preamp,
                          Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
                          Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects. ADDPower Symphony and Electraclear.

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