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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
    Mark- I'm largely an ignoramus when it comes to modern digital audio, but one thing I do know from my days of messing with high end video is that you need hard wired internet for signal, not wi-fi (which may be fine for a controller). If you are on a second floor, can't you run conduit outside the house and up to the room? That was done for ac power in my old place in NY, per code) and at the time, I had a hardwired ethernet connection run to my room via cabling exterior to the house (i was on the third floor for the home theatre). It wasn't a big deal- because I didn't have to do it!
    I'm watching this thread with interest regarding the rest.
    Hey Bill. I have had and used stand alone DACs since the early 1990s. My first DAC was an Audio Alchemy. This was around the same time I started building my own computers. I'm no stranger to running digital audio setups. I will have to look into what it would take to get an ethernet cable run into my room if that is the only answer. My digital gear setup for the last few years was external hard drives connected with USB to my laptop server which was running JRiver connected via USB to the Mytek Stereo 192 and controlled via my iPhone or iPad via the JRemote app. I'm looking to clean this up and get modernized. I have listened to audio purposed built servers with LPS to realize they make a difference over a laptop. There is a noise there using the laptop that you don't realize is there until it's gone. I do see a new DAC and server in my future, but I won't be going all out, uber, tippy-top, but I do want to step up from what I have now. Analog is still my first priority and I need to spend some money there as well.
    SP-10 MKII table with custom power supply designed and built by Peter Noerbaek with an SME 3012R with Dyna XV-1S cartridge, VPI Avenger table with rim drive and JMW -12-3D arrm with Lyra Etna SL cartridge, Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, NOLA KO speakers with a pair of Def Tech Ref subs, and a pair of JBL 4345 speakers.

    Comment


    • Bill Hart
      Bill Hart commented
      Editing a comment
      mep- I'm confident you'll get what you want sorted.
      Steve Lefkowicz- fascinating. I would have figured the usual anomalies that plague wi-fi would be worse for serious audio. I certainly did not know this. In my ignorance, let me share one story: an installer told me he hooked up an old lady with wi-fi. She didn't know what that meant. He explained no wires- the signal travelled thru the air. Worked fine after he finished the install. He got a call shortly thereafter from the woman saying it doesn't work. He went back to her place- no modem/router. He said, "what happened to the device I installed?" She said, "well, you told me I didn't need wires, so i unplugged that ugly thing and put it in the closet."

    • david k
      david k commented
      Editing a comment
      Exactly my experience Steve, haven’t heard anything beat an iPad streaming over an Airport network, no matter how much money and effort is wasted.

      david

    • Steve Lefkowicz
      Steve Lefkowicz commented
      Editing a comment
      Bill, thanks for that, I could tell you many similar stories from my job. One doctor lost over 100,000 patient records after hearing someone (not us) mention something about "saving to the cloud" and took that as an indication they could stop daily archiving. One hard drive failure later and six years of patient records (fortunately just on our system) were gone.

      Not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just that with stuff like this things can be very situational. I use a wired LAN connection because the WiFi in my music server has always been unreliable (an issue with the built in WiFi on it). However, for the notebook I use in my headphone station, I use WiFi (mostly just for Tidal, though I can also play from the network share of the library on my music server) and hear no difference whatsoever between that and when I plug a LAN cable in. Then again, my wife uses the cloud based licensed version of Adobe Creative Suite, and insisted I drop a network cable for her that she can plug in anywhere in the living room. WiFi doesn't seem to cut it for that.

      There are very few parts of this hobby where absolutes hold up. That's part of what makes it so much fun.

  • #17
    With the amount of money and human resources being thrown at WiFi now and for the last few years, I would expect it to equal hard wired in the near future if it doesn't already. Certainly the bandwidth is already far in excess of any conceivable need of digital audio.

    Comment


    • dsnyder0cnn
      dsnyder0cnn commented
      Editing a comment
      Agreed...802.11ac is fast enough to stream 4k video, so there's definitely adequate bandwidth for audio. How stable the network runs depends on the environment. If you live in a house with a three-acre lot and the nearest neighbor is 600 yards away, Wi-Fi should be nearly as good as wired Ethernet. If you live in an apartment, condo, or small neighborhood with Wi-Fi signals from many neighbors intruding on your space, even the best Wi-Fi gear is going to struggle a little.

  • #18
    Originally posted by rbbert View Post
    With the amount of money and human resources being thrown at WiFi now and for the last few years, I would expect it to equal hard wired in the near future if it doesn't already. Certainly the bandwidth is already far in excess of any conceivable need of digital audio.
    I am getting around 90 Mbps with my wifi.
    SP-10 MKII table with custom power supply designed and built by Peter Noerbaek with an SME 3012R with Dyna XV-1S cartridge, VPI Avenger table with rim drive and JMW -12-3D arrm with Lyra Etna SL cartridge, Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, NOLA KO speakers with a pair of Def Tech Ref subs, and a pair of JBL 4345 speakers.

    Comment


    • rbbert
      rbbert commented
      Editing a comment
      And 4x DSD is less than 1.5 Mbps?

  • #19
    So some thing high-speed wifi is acceptable for a network and some think we still need to be hardwired. Some people think USB is the way to go while others want Ethernet CAT 6.
    SP-10 MKII table with custom power supply designed and built by Peter Noerbaek with an SME 3012R with Dyna XV-1S cartridge, VPI Avenger table with rim drive and JMW -12-3D arrm with Lyra Etna SL cartridge, Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, NOLA KO speakers with a pair of Def Tech Ref subs, and a pair of JBL 4345 speakers.

    Comment


    • rbbert
      rbbert commented
      Editing a comment
      Although cataloging options are minimal and DSP non-existent (but I do have iPad remote), I get better sound plugging a USB hard drive into my Oppo than laptop/USB (even with software mods similar to Gary’s and a Regen) or WiFi from a network. Like many, I don’t have a reasonable way to run Ethernet to my stereo, although I do to my home theater. Can’t say I notice any improvement compared to WiFi in that application, but it is easy and convenient there.

  • #20
    Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post
    I'll let others respond for the higher end stuff, but I would like to start with it all depends on what you are using as a source, and whether you will be sending the signal via USB, COAX, Toslink (probably not) or a network cable. If you are using a PC or any device that will send through a USB port, one essential thing to try (though not necessarily need) would be a USB power supply. These do not effect the DAC, but clean up the electrical noise from the source components and send a cleaner, quieter signal to the downstream devices.

    Since I use an off the shelf, inexpensive Windows Notebook for my server, I understand that I have a noisy environment for the USB. It is essential in my system that i use a USB power supply, currently an iFi iUSB3. This was a big improvement over the two I used previously (an original iFi iUSB or a Schiit Wyrd). Both of those were very effective, but the iUSB3 is simply better in all regards. However, the effectiveness with all of these is based almost entirely on the source device. I've had four different notebooks over the past several years, and all were improved by using the USB power supply, regardless of what DAC i used.

    Currently, I go from:
    Notebook USB to iFi iUSB3 via an old upmarket ($150 USB cable, though I can't remember the brand right now)
    iUSB3 to an iFi iPurifier2 via the double headed iFi Gemini cable (one head for power alone, one for data signal only)
    iPurifier2 plugs straight into the iDAC2,
    iDAC2 to the preamp, via a Vermouth Audio Black Pearl interconnect.

    Not including cables I'm just under the $1000 mark, and very satisfied with the digital part of my system.

    I do have an Audioquest Jitterbug to try out, just haven't plugged it in yet.
    STEVE when you play music is the battery charger plugged in ?
    Does you dac need the 5 volt to hand shake ?
    What os is running ?
    What cpu is installed I7 and model. ?
    Are you able to go into the bios and try stuff if I suggest things. ?

    Comment


    • #21
      Originally posted by mep View Post
      I have asked numerous times for members who are way into digital audio to diagram out all of the digital dingle berries you need to have in your chain to achieve a high level of SQ for playback of files and streaming. No one has addressed this yet. I'm trying to see if there is any consensus on the devices that are needed vice brand names that you are using at this point. I am beginning to understand that my choice of using a laptop for a server is not an optimized solution.
      Beginning lol. Having posted this there are many inprovemts to be had from that very laptop of your up to it.
      read my reply to STEVE
      as for other forums there are many this issue becomes the gods and there minions and I can’t deal with thist at times.
      Mlyles has a great group of cool members here and they are respectful this means plenty to me.
      I will with Rex help anyone who asks always.

      Comment


      • #22
        Mep,
        To get the full potential from the Mojo server you have try the following:
        Put a switch and NAS in your listening room. Connect them to the server with any jumpers. This is not for Streaming Tidal. You are only exporting music to the internal storage.

        In the Roon program when you see a album you like on your NAS, click on the square with the 3 little dots under the title of the album at the top of the page. Tell it to export. Go to browse and find the music storage drive in the server. It's probably be called F. Hit ok, then go back to export and hit the button again. It will now show that F drive as a path. It will take about 10 seconds to export the file to the internal drive.

        Now play the file from the internal drive Via USB to your DAC. You will probably see 2 versions on the album. It is now seeing it on the NAS and the internal drive. To figure out which one is on the internal drive, click the square with 3 dots in a song and follow the "View File info" it will tell you if you are playing from the NAS or F drive. An easier way is to spend some time moving a bunch of albums to the F drive. When you are done, go to the "Settings in Roon, then go to "Storage". Disable the NAS. Don't worry, nothing will be lost. It will just stop looking at it. Click the button again to Enable it and it will all be seen again. When you disable it, all you will see is the music on the internal drive. It will sound significantly better than from the NAS.

        I highly encourage you to try the HQ player that can be tried for 30 days on 1/2 hour periods. To do so, you will need to get a little better understanding of the "Audio" Tab under settings. You will need to direct the playback through the output that will have HQ player assigned to it. Probably an AISO output. Al knows this stuff better than me. Its a few steps to get it setup but worth the effort. You can easily switch between outputs during a song and hear the benefits if brings to the playback.

        I also encourage you to adjust your Bios to what mine is. We have the same motherboard. I am happy to take pictures.

        I also encourage you to adjust the AO to be the same as mine. Both the BIOS and AO settings were suggested to me by Al and work very well in my system. When you get them right, they make a significant difference.

        This is a pretty simple way to get very good sound from the server you have. I know you will be pleased. If you respond to my Private message with Al on the reply we will send photos of the settings and help you get the Output assigned properly.
        Each step is incremental but they compound on one another eventually getting to a place where you have very delightful playback.

        If you really want to get the sound rich and full, you will download Roon Server on the Mojo Server. You will then put Roon on your laptop and in essence make that server an Endpoint. For now, start with the above and you will be rewarded with very good sound.

        If you like what you are hearing and want to start streaming, there is more to do. Lets cross that bridge once you get it working from the internal drive. That will get you over a big part of the learning curve. Fortunately a lot of what you are going to learn is useful to many other servers as Roon is an excellent file storage and search tool. It is used by a few other server manufacturer. Roon also sounds good, but we want excellent sound. HQ player goes more to the excellent. Its not as hard to setup and get working as people would have you think. Deciding what filters are best for your system is tougher, but the basic setup Al suggested to me works well. I am just starting to change the filters. You will hear the differences and make decisions on your own later.

        Reiterating a point, the Bios and AO settings are pretty critical. If you don't bother optimizing these settings, you will not get the full potential of the server.
        Rex
        Pure Audio Project Trio 10/Voxativ, Transition Audio 811A Triode monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI, Custom TT with Vertere tone arm, Allnic H1201, Denon 103R Midas Saphire with line contact diamond. Mojo Audio CAT Server with remote Illuminati power supply, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC. Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

        Comment


        • dsnyder0cnn
          dsnyder0cnn commented
          Editing a comment
          Lots of good tips here, but I don't think I would recommend putting a NAS in the listening room. Those tend to be noisy beasts and have no place next to or even in the same room with audio equipment, IMHO. I'm curious to know what "AO settings" are.

      • #23
        Originally posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
        (2) Synology DS1515 5-bay desktop NAS with 36 terabytes of storage capacity (twin 36tb NAS units, mirrored........one in the house, one in the barn) --> whole house giga network --> Sound Music Galleries (SGM) server ---> USB cable ---> MSB Select II dac (Femto 33 clock) + dual mono power supplies (one for the digital circuits, one for the analog circuits)----> 'zeel' interconnect --> darTZeel preamp.

        SGM server has HQplayer and Roon with Tidal streaming over the network (most decent servers will have these things). and uses an I-pad for navigation over wifi. in daily use transparent and easy to use. SGM comes with lots of handholding and remote support (not all servers have this part) and would work for anyone who had the interest to purchase it. no techie skills required other than willingness to learn and adapt.

        I also have a separate laptop station set up on the network for remote file download and ripping of discs. easy to download quite large hirez files from my main laptop and move to NAS and map in Roon. minimal (drag and drop files) skills necessary.
        Mike you play music from your nas drives over Ethernet ? And the nas drives are in raid 1 mirror ?
        Do you have any switches or routers ?
        Do you use any lps for the above ?
        Do you use a separate network for your music stuff so it’s not on the House network with it’s band width being shared ?

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by mep View Post
          Now we are getting somewhere. I need to set the record straight here lest anyone think I don't have any digital in my system. I have had a laptop server (the one Rob describes that Gary Koh gave out instructions on how to modify) for years now and I have two external hard drives filled with both DSD and PCM. Both drives are USB. I have owned the Mytek Stereo 192 DAC for years. I started out by running Foobar and switched to JRiver which I now officially don't like. I just installed Roon yesterday and I haven't been able to get it to synch up to my DAC yet. I use an iPad as a remote to run the server. I have reviewed numerous DACs and a server and I currently have another server inhouse for review.

          But, the world of digital audio has been evolving over the past few years and surprise, surprise, there doesn't seem to be consensus on the optimum way to setup your digital network and I'm not talking about arguing over brand names. As we can see above, LaserCD doesn't like USB between the server and the DAC. Alex is all about using USB. There also seems to be a relatively new bunch of digital dingle berry devices that are finding their way into the digital networks.

          One of the issues in my new room is that it's not wired for ethernet and I have to use a wifi connection to my network. Because my room is upstairs, I don't know if I can run an ethernet cable to the room. What I want is a nice stable network that will seamlessly switch between PCM and DSD. I know I need a "real" server with an LPS, but I don't know if NAS drives are the way to go now.
          WiFi on paper should work fine now in reality it’s more noise and bandwidth limits that ruin the sound
          how long ago did GARY give details ?
          Things have moved on and GARY is a very smart man a man I look up to for sure.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by mep View Post

            I am getting around 90 Mbps with my wifi.
            I don't have quad DSD. Mine only goes to 128..
            SP-10 MKII table with custom power supply designed and built by Peter Noerbaek with an SME 3012R with Dyna XV-1S cartridge, VPI Avenger table with rim drive and JMW -12-3D arrm with Lyra Etna SL cartridge, Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, NOLA KO speakers with a pair of Def Tech Ref subs, and a pair of JBL 4345 speakers.

            Comment


            • rbbert
              rbbert commented
              Editing a comment
              So your WiFi has more than 100x the bandwidth necessary. Yes, it’s probably about more than just bandwidth...

          • #26
            Originally posted by Kingrex View Post
            Mep,
            To get the full potential from the Mojo server you have try the following:
            Put a switch and NAS in your listening room. Connect them to the server with any jumpers. This is not for Streaming Tidal. You are only exporting music to the internal storage.

            In the Roon program when you see a album you like on your NAS, click on the square with the 3 little dots under the title of the album at the top of the page. Tell it to export. Go to browse and find the music storage drive in the server. It's probably be called F. Hit ok, then go back to export and hit the button again. It will now show that F drive as a path. It will take about 10 seconds to export the file to the internal drive.

            Now play the file from the internal drive Via USB to your DAC. You will probably see 2 versions on the album. It is now seeing it on the NAS and the internal drive. To figure out which one is on the internal drive, click the square with 3 dots in a song and follow the "View File info" it will tell you if you are playing from the NAS or F drive. An easier way is to spend some time moving a bunch of albums to the F drive. When you are done, go to the "Settings in Roon, then go to "Storage". Disable the NAS. Don't worry, nothing will be lost. It will just stop looking at it. Click the button again to Enable it and it will all be seen again. When you disable it, all you will see is the music on the internal drive. It will sound significantly better than from the NAS.

            I highly encourage you to try the HQ player that can be tried for 30 days on 1/2 hour periods. To do so, you will need to get a little better understanding of the "Audio" Tab under settings. You will need to direct the playback through the output that will have HQ player assigned to it. Probably an AISO output. Al knows this stuff better than me. Its a few steps to get it setup but worth the effort. You can easily switch between outputs during a song and hear the benefits if brings to the playback.

            I also encourage you to adjust your Bios to what mine is. We have the same motherboard. I am happy to take pictures.

            I also encourage you to adjust the AO to be the same as mine. Both the BIOS and AO settings were suggested to me by Al and work very well in my system. When you get them right, they make a significant difference.

            This is a pretty simple way to get very good sound from the server you have. I know you will be pleased. If you respond to my Private message with Al on the reply we will send photos of the settings and help you get the Output assigned properly.
            Each step is incremental but they compound on one another eventually getting to a place where you have very delightful playback.

            If you really want to get the sound rich and full, you will download Roon Server on the Mojo Server. You will then put Roon on your laptop and in essence make that server an Endpoint. For now, start with the above and you will be rewarded with very good sound.

            If you like what you are hearing and want to start streaming, there is more to do. Lets cross that bridge once you get it working from the internal drive. That will get you over a big part of the learning curve. Fortunately a lot of what you are going to learn is useful to many other servers as Roon is an excellent file storage and search tool. It is used by a few other server manufacturer. Roon also sounds good, but we want excellent sound. HQ player goes more to the excellent. Its not as hard to setup and get working as people would have you think. Deciding what filters are best for your system is tougher, but the basic setup Al suggested to me works well. I am just starting to change the filters. You will hear the differences and make decisions on your own later.

            Reiterating a point, the Bios and AO settings are pretty critical. If you don't bother optimizing these settings, you will not get the full potential of the server.
            Rex
            Wow you go Rex. You can disable the naz to make the album choice for mep lets overload him with choices lol. Once you have what you want inside the sever storage drive. Good night gents

            Comment


            • mep
              mep commented
              Editing a comment
              You and Rex are overloading me! I already have Roon downloaded on the server. So now I need NAS drives, but I'm going to disable them? 40 steps to click on an album and get music to play?

          • #27
            Originally posted by mep View Post

            I don't have quad DSD. Mine only goes to 128..
            That is good and one would think it’s great but as I said it’s not about specs it’s about what sounds good
            don’t pay attention to just specs
            let’s get you going well then maybe you can lead the charge into the digital age here.

            Comment


            • #28
              Originally posted by mep View Post
              So some thing high-speed wifi is acceptable for a network and some think we still need to be hardwired. Some people think USB is the way to go while others want Ethernet CAT 6.
              Mep usb is fine period and netwrok wmd point is too.
              But most dacs do best in there dsd on usb. But your Mytek does do dsd also on fire wire and aes too
              but like most you don’t have that output.
              Now another topic Rex will touch on soon is a naa
              a
              good one NON store lol is humming bird with a cust linux OS it then needs a 5 volt dc to power it.
              This would allow you to stream to your dac over Ethernet now anywhere the naa is the netwrok to usb interface. its advantage is netwrok isolation and allows your player dac to be anywhere aNd a Ipad or what ever as a control point

              Comment


              • #29
                Just to set the record straight: I don't advocate for USB. DACs with built-in Ethernet renderers are usually better. But there simply isn't enough DACs out there with built-in Ethernet renderers, so I suggested what mep would most likely be using, which is USB.

                Now, suggesting mep get a NAS is ludicrous, and this is the sort of attitude that leaves people cold. A server should not require a NAS or a switch.

                Again, I suggested USB to his DAC because it's simpler, not because it's better. If he gets a DAC with a built-in renderer, like an MSB or PS Audio, he'd still be able to use the same server I've recommended (Innuos), since it also has a built-in Ethernet switch.

                mep, what have you hooked up to your DAC? Your laptop or this server you're evaluating? If it's a Windows laptop, you'll likely need to install drivers. If it's a server, and it needs drivers, just send the thing back and get a different one.





                Disclosure:
                Alma Music and Audio - La Jolla, CA
                Aqua Hi-Fi - Audio Research - Audioquest - Audionet - Audiopax - Auralic - Aurender - Bergmann - Brodmann - D'Agostino - darTZeel - Devialet - DEQX - ELAC - Evolution Acoustics - Hegel - iFi - Innuos - IsoTek - Kii Audio - Koetsu - Kronos - Kubala Sosna - Kuzma - Larsen - Linn - MSB Technology - Music Hall - Ortofon - Solid Steel - Technics - Wharfedale - Wilson Audio - YG Acoustics
                [ http://almaaudio.com ]

                Comment


                • #30
                  Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post

                  Mike you play music from your nas drives over Ethernet ? And the nas drives are in raid 1 mirror ?
                  the barn NAS (located in my rec room above my listening room in the barn) drives the SGM server over my network. the SGM connects to my MSB Select II over USB. so no, the NAS does not directly drive the dac over Ethernet, but at some point that could happen.

                  the other NAS is located in my house. I know the NAS units run on a Linex OS. the mirroring is done manually with an r-sync command remotely by my son when I ask him to (every 6-8 weeks). his viewpoint is that RAID is done for performance but is not helpful for safe backup. the way he has it set up a bomb or fire could take out one NAS and the other would be safe. 18 months ago I had Russian hackers destroy the data (ransomware) on one of my NAS units, the other was unhurt since they could not access it. I have irreplaceable files I need to protect.

                  Do you have any switches or routers ?
                  the network is a whole barn + house network, has 3 Giga-switches and is very fast.

                  Do you use any lps for the above ?
                  not sure if the Synology units use SMPS or LPS. you could look it up. my SGM has only LPS's. I think the one Giga-switch between my NAS and SGM does use an LPS.

                  Do you use a separate network for your music stuff so it’s not on the House network with it’s band width being shared ?
                  only one network, but there is only one switch between the NAS and the SGM server. if I end up with the MSB Roon-MQA Renderer I may replace the generic network cable (NAS to MSB dac) with Synergistic or other 'uber' network cable.

                  Comment

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