First Watt F7 up and running

[GaryB]

I've always been a Nelson Pass fan. Threshold gear was the first high end equipment that I bought back when I was in grad school (a long time ago) and I still have a few Threshold pieces that I occasionally swap into the system. Recently, First Watt came out with their latest limited edition amp - the F7. Like other First Watt gear, it uses simple circuitry, is relatively low power (20W into 8 ohms, 30W into 4 ohms), and is relatively cost effective with a list price of $3000. I was intrigued by the glowing reviews over on 6moons and liked what I read about the general operation of the circuit on diyaudio. So this past week I pulled the trigger and bought one. It only took 1 day to ship from Nevada to my home in the SF bay area and today I got around to hooking it up.
I hooked it up to my Horning Eufrodite speakers and had my DAC feed the F7, either through a passive preamp or directly using the volume control in the DAC. The DAC is driven by an old TEAC VRDS-T1 that was souped up with circuits from G+D transforms. It's a really good sounding transport. I'm only a few hours into listening and haven't come close to optimizing the sound but I can say that this is a fine sounding amp. It works really well with the Horning speakers and has a natural sound that just pulls you in. I'll be trying out different preamps and the usual ancillary equipment but thought I'd give this early preview of what I think is a really interesting amplifier. Of course, take all this with a grain of salt since I spent my own money on this and I want it to sound good. But I'm objective enough to know if something isn't good - especially since the First Watt dealer will take it back for the cost of shipping if I don't like it. At this point I think I'm definitely keeping it. I think I like it better than the other amps I've tried with these speakers including some nice tube amps.
---Gary

[JCOConnell]

Congrats. This amp is reviewed in TAS this month( May/June #263). They liked it.

[GaryB]

Congrats. Is this the same amp reviewed in TAS this month?

Thanks. I don't subscribe to TAS, so I can't really say. I took a look at their website and didn't see any indication of a review.
---Gary

[JCOConnell]

I went back and checked the current issue and yes indeed they did review it this month (the may/june 2016 issue).

[MylesBAstor]

I've always been a Nelson Pass fan. Threshold gear was the first high end equipment that I bought back when I was in grad school (a long time ago) and I still have a few Threshold pieces that I occasionally swap into the system. Recently, First Watt came out with their latest limited edition amp - the F7. Like other First Watt gear, it uses simple circuitry, is relatively low power (20W into 8 ohms, 30W into 4 ohms), and is relatively cost effective with a list price of $3000. I was intrigued by the glowing reviews over on 6moons and liked what I read about the general operation of the circuit on diyaudio. So this past week I pulled the trigger and bought one. It only took 1 day to ship from Nevada to my home in the SF bay area and today I got around to hooking it up.
I hooked it up to my Horning Eufrodite speakers and had my DAC feed the F7, either through a passive preamp or directly using the volume control in the DAC. The DAC is driven by an old TEAC VRDS-T1 that was souped up with circuits from G+D transforms. It's a really good sounding transport. I'm only a few hours into listening and haven't come close to optimizing the sound but I can say that this is a fine sounding amp. It works really well with the Horning speakers and has a natural sound that just pulls you in. I'll be trying out different preamps and the usual ancillary equipment but thought I'd give this early preview of what I think is a really interesting amplifier. Of course, take all this with a grain of salt since I spent my own money on this and I want it to sound good. But I'm objective enough to know if something isn't good - especially since the First Watt dealer will take it back for the cost of shipping if I don't like it. At this point I think I'm definitely keeping it. I think I like it better than the other amps I've tried with these speakers including some nice tube amps.
---Gary

Congrats on the new baby Gary!!! She sounds like a real keeper! Nice to have a speaker that doesn't need an arc welder to drive!

BTW, I remember G&D Transforms (wasn't it Tony DiGiovine right??). Years ago, they were the second company (after the original Duotech) to market a cable burn-in device (I reviewed it in fact). Alan Kafton who now markets the Audiodharma machine, worked with G&D at that time to market their product.

[GaryB]

BTW, I remember G&D Transforms (wasn't it Tony DiGiovine right??). Years ago, they were the second company (after the original Duotech) to market a cable burn-in device (I reviewed it in fact). Alan Kafton who now markets the Audiodharma machine, worked with G&D at that time to market their product.

Myles,
I don't remember the names of the players at G&D, but a quick search does show Tony DiGiovine owning an entity in Phoenix going by that name. That sounds right - I think some of the principals were ex-Motorola engineers who were based in Arizona. G&D was way ahead of its time in the engineering they used in their transports. They provided very good clocks and used impedance matched high speed current switching output drivers. Great stuff that still holds up today.

I didn't know that they also made a burn-in device but searching I found that they called it the MOBIE and that you reviewed it for PF. I've got a burn-in generator that Jim Hagerman made. He still sells a version on his Haglabs website. But what I like about the older version is that it also included an inverse RIAA network and outputs for burning in phono stages and SUTs. It's especially good for SUTs, which otherwise never get enough signal to settle in, at least in a reasonable amount of time.
---Gary

[GaryB]

Congrats on the new baby Gary!!! She sounds like a real keeper! Nice to have a speaker that doesn't need an arc welder to drive!

Myles - thanks for the good wishes. It's always fun to have a new toy to play with.

Regarding the Horning speakers, they're based on Lowthers but with the whizzer cone removed, with a tweeter added to augment above 12khz, and lots of woofers to help below 200hz. They're efficient with a sensitivity of 97db per watt but very particular about what's hooked up. Jeff Catalano always seems to get great sound out of them at shows driving them with single ended amps from the likes of Tron or Thoress but I've struggled with these speakers. I've tried low power singled ended amps (2A3 or VT25) and they didn't have the ability to control the low end properly. Low power-pull amps seemed to do the best to date. Think EL84 push-pull or other equivalents such as the 6V6. Most recently I've been listening to them with an integrated amp, the Shindo Apetite, which uses 6V6 push-pull outputs and its been the closest I've gotten to the sound I wanted. I tried higher power push pull amps running 6550/KT88s but they always sounded a bit rough, accentuating the tendency that Lowthers are known for. Like I said earlier, the F7 seems to be the best so far. I am cautiously optimistic that this amp will tame these speakers. Otherwise I might be in the market for new speakers again, something I'm really hoping to avoid.

---Gary

[gbeard]

Hello GaryB,

(Interestingly enough, I am Gary B..... as well!)

Earlier this week I took delivery of an F7 direct from Nelson Pass for a Positive Feedback review. My speakers are not nearly the friendly load that yours are, but even with my 90dB VSAs I am getting very good sound with my Bent Audio AVC-1. However, last evening, I plugged in an active preamp, the Atma-Sphere UV-1, and it seems to really like the F7, a lot!
I can't quite get my ears wrapped around what I am hearing, but it is certainly very good.

Cheers,
gb

[GaryB]

Hello GaryB,

(Interestingly enough, I am Gary B..... as well!)

Gary,
This could get confusing fast - 2 Garys listening to 2 F7s .

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the F7. Like you, I'm pleased with the sound but still think I need to do more experimenting to get things dialed in. I've been a bit wrapped up with non-audio stuff for the last week or so, thus I haven't done the preamp swapping that I'd planned. I'm a bit retro in my taste for gear, so the ones I want to try out are oldies but goodies. I'll be playing with a CJ Premier 14 and also a nicely restored Threshold FET 10he. Before listening, I suspect that the CJ + F7 might drift too far towards the smooth side of things without enough detail but time will tell. But not having any tubes in the system just doesn't seem right. I'll report back eventually.

---Gary

[1morerecord2clean]

I've always been a Nelson Pass fan. Threshold gear was the first high end equipment that I bought back when I was in grad school (a long time ago) and I still have a few Threshold pieces that I occasionally swap into the system. Recently, First Watt came out with their latest limited edition amp - the F7. Like other First Watt gear, it uses simple circuitry, is relatively low power (20W into 8 ohms, 30W into 4 ohms), and is relatively cost effective with a list price of $3000. I was intrigued by the glowing reviews over on 6moons and liked what I read about the general operation of the circuit on diyaudio. So this past week I pulled the trigger and bought one. It only took 1 day to ship from Nevada to my home in the SF bay area and today I got around to hooking it up.
I hooked it up to my Horning Eufrodite speakers and had my DAC feed the F7, either through a passive preamp or directly using the volume control in the DAC. The DAC is driven by an old TEAC VRDS-T1 that was souped up with circuits from G+D transforms. It's a really good sounding transport. I'm only a few hours into listening and haven't come close to optimizing the sound but I can say that this is a fine sounding amp. It works really well with the Horning speakers and has a natural sound that just pulls you in. I'll be trying out different preamps and the usual ancillary equipment but thought I'd give this early preview of what I think is a really interesting amplifier. Of course, take all this with a grain of salt since I spent my own money on this and I want it to sound good. But I'm objective enough to know if something isn't good - especially since the First Watt dealer will take it back for the cost of shipping if I don't like it. At this point I think I'm definitely keeping it. I think I like it better than the other amps I've tried with these speakers including some nice tube amps.
---Gary

Thanks very much for this post Gary. This hits home for me for several reasons.i currently have a Hovland HP-100 driving a Threshold T-200 amp. That's the amp following Nelson Pass's sale of Threshold to the subsequent owners. This amp is pure class 100w/channel. It has a really dynamic tube like sound and although it is old I have not given it up. I have a long association with Jeff C and I was thinking of buying the Hornings. He discouraged me because he thought my amp wouldn't sound good at all. I have asked some other folks in the industry who sell horns and they thought the pairing could be very good. Any thoughts on your part? Keep us up to date on how the First Watt works out for you.

[GaryB]

. . . I have a long association with Jeff C and I was thinking of buying the Hornings. He discouraged me because he thought my amp wouldn't sound good at all. I have asked some other folks in the industry who sell horns and they thought the pairing could be very good. Any thoughts on your part? Keep us up to date on how the First Watt works out for you.

My suggestion is to listen to Jeff C unless you have a chance to listen to your amp on the Hornings before buying. If you're close to one of the upcoming shows (Newport, RMAF, etc.) perhaps you can convince Jeff to let you try out your amp with his speakers after normal show hours.

As noted in this thread, my experience has been that it's quite challenging to dial in the Hornings and the help of a good dealer is invaluable. I have quite a few different amps in my collection, all of which sound good with most speakers. But Hornings aren't most speakers. None of my amps quite seemed to mesh to create the magic that I expected. On the other hand, Jeff always seems to make the Hornings sing at audio shows, which isn't easy. So unless you're interested in a journey that may require you to try out quite a few different amps, I'd suggest that you take advantage of his hard won knowledge and follow his recommendation.

---Gary

[1morerecord2clean]

My suggestion is to listen to Jeff C unless you have a chance to listen to your amp on the Hornings before buying. If you're close to one of the upcoming shows (Newport, RMAF, etc.) perhaps you can convince Jeff to let you try out your amp with his speakers after normal show hours.

As noted in this thread, my experience has been that it's quite challenging to dial in the Hornings and the help of a good dealer is invaluable. I have quite a few different amps in my collection, all of which sound good with most speakers. But Hornings aren't most speakers. None of my amps quite seemed to mesh to create the magic that I expected. On the other hand, Jeff always seems to make the Hornings sing at audio shows, which isn't easy. So unless you're interested in a journey that may require you to try out quite a few different amps, I'd suggest that you take advantage of his hard won knowledge and follow his recommendation.

---Gary

I listen to Jeff as often as I can. I agree, he's usually right.

[GaryB]

. . . I am getting very good sound with my Bent Audio AVC-1. However, last evening, I plugged in an active preamp, the Atma-Sphere UV-1, and it seems to really like the F7, a lot!
I can't quite get my ears wrapped around what I am hearing, but it is certainly very good.

Cheers,
gb

Gary Beard,
I hope that you're continuing to enjoy your time with the F7.
I finally got around to unplugging my passive preamp and began driving the F7 with a Conrad Johnson Premier 14. The 6GK5s in the CJ tested pretty weak, so I replaced them with some NOS GEs that I had lying around. This preamp has been sitting idle for quite a while, plus the new tubes probably need some time to burn in. But I can already say after a couple of hours that the F7 really likes tube preamplification and an active preamp is a good step up from a passive one. There is a naturalness to the presentation that just draws you in. Many have noted with regard to passive preamps that they don't quite get the scale of things right. The passive preamp sounded good, but now that I've switched in the CJ, it's obvious that's there is just more there. This combination is getting closer to what I'd been hoping for when I first bought these speakers. The F7 continues to impress but it needs to be mated with sympathetic components to get its full measure.
In the future I'll swap in a solid state preamp to see how much of the improvement is from the use of an active preamp and how much is the addition of a bit of tube warmth to the system.
---Gary

[MylesBAstor]

Gary Beard,
I hope that you're continuing to enjoy your time with the F7.
I finally got around to unplugging my passive preamp and began driving the F7 with a Conrad Johnson Premier 14. The 6GK5s in the CJ tested pretty weak, so I replaced them with some NOS GEs that I had lying around. This preamp has been sitting idle for quite a while, plus the new tubes probably need some time to burn in. But I can already say after a couple of hours that the F7 really likes tube preamplification and an active preamp is a good step up from a passive one. There is a naturalness to the presentation that just draws you in. Many have noted with regard to passive preamps that they don't quite get the scale of things right. The passive preamp sounded good, but now that I've switched in the CJ, it's obvious that's there is just more there. This combination is getting closer to what I'd been hoping for when I first bought these speakers. The F7 continues to impress but it needs to be mated with sympathetic components to get its full measure.
In the future I'll swap in a solid state preamp to see how much of the improvement is from the use of an active preamp and how much is the addition of a bit of tube warmth to the system.
---Gary

The Premier 14 was a real nice unit but those 6GK5 tubes could drive you crazy. Like the nuvistors cj tried, the 6GK5 just never seemed to last. The Mullards sounded the best but didn't last more than a couple of months; conversely, the GEs lasted but didn't sound as good.

See Kevin at Upscale has these 6GK5s in stock:

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/misc-audio-tubes/mullard-6gk5/

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/misc-audio-tubes/hitachi-6gk5/

[GaryB]

The Premier 14 was a real nice unit but those 6GK5 tubes could drive you crazy. Like the nuvistors cj tried, the 6GK5 just never seemed to last. The Mullards sounded the best but didn't last more than a couple of months; conversely, the GEs lasted but didn't sound as good.

Myles,
Thanks for the real world experience with different 6GK5 tubes. I bought this unit used and it came with a couple of Sylvania 6GK5s made in Great Britain and a couple of GEs. The Sylvanias look like Mullards and were very weak. So it's consistent with your experience that Mullards don't last. I'm going to pull out my multimeter and measure the operating point of the tubes and see if I can figure out why tubes might fail prematurely. I've got a theory on what might cause this problem and if I'm right then it would be an easy fix to prevent this. I can post details in the upcoming DIY section if my theory holds up.
---Gary

[GaryB]

. . . the 6GK5 just never seemed to last . . .

Myles,
One question - did the Mullards last longer in one position than the other? Each channel of the Premier 14 has one 6GK5 as a gain stage and then one 6GK5 as a cathode follower. I think that the cathode follower stage 6GK5 would be more likely to fail. Do you recall if that's what you saw?
Thanks,
---Gary