Have recent Integrated Amplifiers gained an honest respect in high-end audio......

[Johnny Vinyl]

...or will they always play second fiddle simply because they are an integrated component?

[JCOConnell]

they will always play second fiddle because they ARE integrated. As such, it removes the possibility of upgrading just the preamp OR the power amp sections. ( unless you have pre out and main in jacks, but even then, that leads to inefficient wasted unused component sections).

[Asamel]

That attribute does not make them second anything. It's a small part of their profile.

[Johnny Vinyl]

What about sound? Do they always take a back seat?

[Rust]

IMO integrated amplifiers do not take a back seat in sound quality, given comparison to equivalent amplifiers and preamplifiers. One thing to note is that where integrated amplifiers stop, separates keep on going in price and sophistication.

Past a certain price point and considering the enthusiast market, separates make more sense so like the Johnny Cash Cadillac you can do it one piece at a time.

[Johnny Vinyl]

]IMO integrated amplifiers do not take a back seat in sound quality, given comparison to equivalent amplifiers and preamplifiers[/B]. One thing to note is that where integrated amplifiers stop, separates keep on going in price and sophistication.

Past a certain price point and considering the enthusiast market, separates make more sense so like the Johnny Cash Cadillac you can do it one piece at a time.

I agree.

[JCOConnell]

some high end mfgrs are taking integrateds further than ever in terms of sophistication, price, and sound quality. So I would say they no longer are back seat in sound quality. But for the price they are asking, you can buy nice separates.

[Johnny Vinyl]

some high end mfgrs are taking integrateds further than ever in terms of sophistication, price, and sound quality. So I would say they no longer are back seat in sound quality.

Agreed as well and kind of my reason for starting this thread. I think it's a wonderful development and has the potential of bringing more people into the audio club, so to speak.

[Rust]

As far as getting into the audio club goes, price is perhaps the major consideration for a beginner. Or for anyone with a limited budget. Decent equipment can be had for not a lot of money. One problem is that virtually no bricks and mortar store carries any low cost equipment as there is not enough profit even at standard margins. Years back it was different but the big box stores killed the segment. But now days it all seems to be direct marketed or special order from a big box.

This is why I believe it is important to cover quality low cost gear with the same attention to detail as mega bucks gear and in the same venue, not just relegate it to a lesser publication/site with a couple of paragraphs of what sounds like advertising copy. If the "big dogs" take it seriously then the beginners are more likely to sit up and take notice.

And by the way, I think that RMAF setting up low price point rooms starting at $500 is brilliant.

[tom_hankins]

The offerings from Vitus and Audionet that I've heard are up there with seperates in the same price range.

[Rob]

IMHO, the ASR Emitter is a among the best regardless of cost, whether they're separates, tubes/SS (its an integrated!).

[rbbert]

I have trouble with the philosophical concept of a line-level preamp, it's an extra gain stage which could just as easily be built into the power amplifier or skipped altogether. Despite that, it's clear that many existing power amps sound better driven by a line-level preamp than dirctly from a source component. The fact that not all do leads me to consider the possibility that many manufacturers design their amps this way in order to sell preamps also?

[JCOConnell]

I have trouble with the philosophical concept of a line-level preamp, it's an extra gain stage which could just as easily be built into the power amplifier or skipped altogether. Despite that, it's clear that many existing power amps sound better driven by a line-level preamp than dirctly from a source component. The fact that not all do leads me to consider the possibility that many manufacturers design their amps this way in order to sell preamps also?

I think the situation is that in some cases preamps are designed to drive power amp inputs better than source components are designed to drive power amp inputs.

[rbbert]

But there is probably no good engineering reason for that to be so, IMHO. For one thing, many newer audiophile integrated amps don't include an extra gain stage, just a volume control and a selector switch with impedance matching. On the other hand, I may be unreasonably cynical on this point.

[mep]

Johnny-Have you been hanging around Caesar Appleseed lately? This sounds like a post he would have started. Like everything in this hobby, there is a place for everything including integrated amps and customers for them. There is no reason they can't sound fantastic. Who cares what everyone else thinks? If you find an integrated that makes your socks roll up and down at a price that is attractive for you, go for it.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Ouch! Low blow!

[Jtycho]

In a conversation with my favorite amp designer, Gilbert Yeung of Blue Circle, he told me that dollar for dollar you'll get more out of an integrated. In other words a $10,000 integrated will probably be as good as $14,000 in separates if made by the same company. I imagine there's more to it than that, but it seems logical enough.

[JCOConnell]

In a conversation with my favorite amp designer, Gilbert Yeung of Blue Circle, he told me that dollar for dollar you'll get more out of an integrated. In other words a $10,000 integrated will probably be as good as $14,000 in separates if made by the same company. I imagine there's more to it than that, but it seems logical enough.

That certainly makes sense. With seperates, you have two chassis and two power supplies, with an integrated, you only need one of each. There may be other parts that can be eliminated too.

[MylesBAstor]

But is having only one power supply and transformer an advantage or disadvantage? Me think the latter. Especially when we can make the argument that monoblocks that don't share the same power supply and have the bass from both channels drawing on the PS sound better.

[JCOConnell]

If nothing else, its cheaper