Symphonic Line Kraft - Caesar's amps, vs Burm 911 on B&W and Magico

[bonzo75]

[tom_hankins]

Thanks, really enjoyed this and the other comparisons you have posted.

[kcin]

I've read about your travels and impressions.. so what's your personal system? - thanks.

[Rob]

the Sym line RG1 was one of those amps that stopped me in my tracks --so organic and natural sounding--the Kraft must take it up a notch. at the time, the RG 1 wasn't quite powerful enough for my speakers and i was making wholesale changes like the proverbial changing of socks so I put on the brakes. have you heard Caesar's Scintillas?

[bonzo75]

the Sym line RG1 was one of those amps that stopped me in my tracks --so organic and natural sounding--the Kraft must take it up a notch. at the time, the RG 1 wasn't quite powerful enough for my speakers and i was making wholesale changes like the proverbial changing of socks so I put on the brakes. have you heard Caesar's Scintillas?

Caesar has MBL 101s, someone else has Scintillas. Haven't heard them

[bonzo75]

I've read about your travels and impressions.. so what's your personal system? - thanks.

I sold of Martin Logan Summits. I won the Lampi, which I won't sell off, and an Ayon Orthos KT XS 150, 300w triode, 400 pentode, that I am selling off. After I buy a bigger place, I intend to settle down with one of two speakers - a restored Apogee or a DIY big horn that I have heard. Will have to compare some SETs and OTLs like Berning and Tenor 75 for the horns. The one thing that I want to learn more about for the next few years is analog. I love your Aesthetix IO, btw, my fellow reviewer Audiophile Bill has the IO Sig, so we will use it to compare phonos.

And yes, I would have loved to listen to stacked quads from Picquet - or used Acoustats of which I have heard only 1 pair. Those are my kind of systems

[kcin]

Good luck on your journey. Probably, very rare on the continent but you should look at Wyetech for SET if you decide on the horns route. I also have had the Berning ZH-270 in my home for 10 years or so. He makes really exceptional amps.

The Wyetech , especially his new series would be something to behold. I have the 211 Topaz .. it works well with just about everything. The Io still works for me. You need good rack space and constitution for the 30 or so tubes in a two supply unit. One other speaker you should listen to if you get the opportunity, and there appears to be a good concentration of in Europe, is Beveridge. If you like what electrostatics can do then you have to hear these as well. They do some things better than most speakers.

The Tenor is built down the road from me & I have numerous opportunities to hear it. Nice piece as well.

Cheers.

[bonzo75]

Oh wow wow - how do you describe the differences in Berning, Tenor, and Wyetech? So I compared Tenor 75 with Spectral and Airtight 211 - I haven't seen such a Mike Tyson like KO on amps before. I mainly compare orchestral and baritione/soprano. I loved the Tenor. There were two of us, both reached the same conclusion. R`egarding the Berning, I haven't heard the 270 or 230, but comparing the preamp to Einstein, and the pre+Quadrature to Vitus integrated (different power headroom), the Berning seems to be clean, transparent, linear, fast, but with more harmonics then SS yet not having any valve muddiness. What is the wyetch like?

[Elberoth]

Your assesment of the Burmester 911 sound fully matches mine:

The Symphonic line was the most organic and flowing of the recent lot. Possibly a bit less detailed and less fast than Burmester, not that it’s slow, but will not get bright due to keeping it a bit dark. But quite a bit better than the Burm overall.

The Kraft also had better midbass for baritones as for easily audible on Winterreise. As for the Burmester, I do find it dynamic, but less tone for classical, a bit edgy. Burmester also sounds a bit too precise, while the SL has the more natural holistic continuity between images. The Burm is much thinner in the midbass. The piano on the Kraft is more flowing as opposed to toppy for the Burmester. Also, with the Kraft, the music flows into the room.

[Bill Hart]

I have no first hand experience with these particular amps you compared, Bonzo, but your remark about something sounding "too precise" struck home- since it captures something that is not only a constant in audiophile debates (e.g. tube v solid state or analog v digital) but better describes the characteristics than "warm" v. "analytical." I'm all about how the attack and decay is reproduced, in addition to tonality, dynamics and all the other audiophile attributes.
There are a million ways to approach this endeavor to reproduce music depending on budget, sonic priorities (and biases), and source material. That un-mechanical sounding "flow" or organic quality is one of many attributes I value and I do think this relates to both tone and timing (attack and decay). Sometimes, we're held hostage by the source material in that respect- the recording just doesn't have the mojo.
Good to see that you have a blog (and with Larry, no less, whose work I've seen here and on other audio chat fora). Your remark about a "reset" of one's reference is apt. I just put my system into storage, and in the meantime, received my freshly restored Quad Loudspeakers (aka '57). Because I'm as likely to listen to heavy metal as I am to a solo cello recording, I'm not sure doubling up the Quads will make me happy, but I think the real value of the journey is the process, not the "final" result. Thus, the turnover among high end enthusiasts constantly on the prowl. Keep it up.

[Rob]

wow, you got your 57s back from Kent...how about the amps and who is doing the restoration on those??

[Bill Hart]

The rest is a work in progress, Rob. Kent recommended Bill Thalmann of Music Technology in Virginia. We dropped the stuff off there en route to the Inn at Little Washington. Bill was the Technical Director of Conrad Johnson, and among other things, is the guy who does the Krebs upgrades to the Technics SP-10 tables in the States. He has the Quad IIs, my old SP-10 and the MX-110z that I bought online and had shipped directly to him. I'm not in a huge rush, since I can't really set this system (let alone my main system) up where we are renting, but once we buy a place, I'll be looking for some boxes to arrive.

[kcin]

Oh wow wow - how do you describe the differences in Berning, Tenor, and Wyetech? So I compared Tenor 75 with Spectral and Airtight 211 - I haven't seen such a Mike Tyson like KO on amps before. I mainly compare orchestral and baritione/soprano. I loved the Tenor. There were two of us, both reached the same conclusion. R`egarding the Berning, I haven't heard the 270 or 230, but comparing the preamp to Einstein, and the pre+Quadrature to Vitus integrated (different power headroom), the Berning seems to be clean, transparent, linear, fast, but with more harmonics then SS yet not having any valve muddiness. What is the wyetch like?

The Berning's best suit is the lower registers seemingly down to dc with accuracy no muddiness. Very fast very clean. No excessive roundness. Not solid state but definitely not burnished. No haze and all transformer coupled amps have some form of haze.

My Futterman absolutely eliminates the haze but is a bit etched , the Berning is not.

The Wyetech is a phenomenal amp about 125lbs of absolutely clean with harmonics to die for and seemingly able to drive almost anything. I spent a year experiencing SETs that I could live with . The Wyetech came out on top without the ridiculous nature of some of the AN UK or Kondo type prices. Do some 2A3 or 300B types offer a little more in the midrange?- maybe, but they can't compete in drive, power and linearity of the Wyetech. I am a big fan. Roger has his opinions but I believe the proof is in the listening .. he makes some damn fine products that are unfortunately not well distributed. If they were, they would be multiple times more than the current asking prices. Their build quality is not artful self indulgence but industrial control system tough- really well done.

I have never had the Tenor in my system but the store that I spent my time at and $ at - the owner had an original one (his son still holds it I believe- unfortunately the owner passed away) and played it through Quad ESLs - total magic.

I have heard the complete current Tenor system at our Regional audio show last year and thought it had great promise but the room did not play well. I am sure the Tenor is worth pursuing at this level. Our local boutique dealer now carries Wyetech ( Roger has one dealer - in this dealer) and Tenor and Magico and Kondo so some pretty serious stuff- I think, depending on your priorities, the Wyetech is as good as any with the correct speaker match.

Have fun

[bonzo75]

Kcin, since you are from Canada, how did the Antique Sound Labs compare to these things? Especially the 1009/Cadenza? And have you compared the Berning pre to the other preamps?

[kcin]

No idea on the antique sound labs units. The outfit that manufactures Reference 3A speakers here represents them. He is local about 40min away and always at the shows. He hasn't shown ASL in a while that I've seen.

My experience with Berning is with his ZH 270 amp- It is said to be the precursor to the Qudrature series. Same topology but now mono and packaged nicer with distribution at multiples the cost . The new Quadrature equipment I have heard at the shows. Can't really give you an impression on the pre-amp only -sorry it was part of a whole set up. Typical Berning clean, deep and fast.

[bonzo75]

Also, what about the Wyetech ruby phono? Any comparisons to your IO or any others?

[kcin]

Sorry, can't help you on the Ruby phono. Not heard in any environment I could run any impressions on.

[MylesBAstor]

Caesar has MBL 101s, someone else has Scintillas. Haven't heard them

Now I saw the tts in the picture but was just wondering if you used vinyl in your comparisons? I know my reaction to the Burmester changed quite a bit whether I was listening to digital or analog.

[bonzo75]

On this, yes. But with the 909 it was both SME 30/12 and Nagra as well as Lampi, and on another 911 vs Boulder and Plinius it was pure digital, and was digital too with 956 vs Gryphon colosseum. Off to sleep now bye