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  • The Chicken Or The Egg???

    EdA raised a good point in the Yes Fragile thread about adjusting arm height to compensate for range of LP thicknesses (Dynawarp to 200 g). The problem is that unless you have a neutral balanced arm (say the Graham tonearm) where the pivot point and COG are in the same plane VTF changes with arm height.

    SAT provides a really nice chart in their owners manual where record height height - gauge height is listed against the amount of VTF that needs to be added. That of course will depend upon arm length too. So for the 12-inch SAT this number goes from 0.05 g (1 mm) to 0.11 g (for 4 mm). Double those numbers for the 9-inch version. So the final VTF when setting up a cartridge where the difference between record height and the stylus force gauge is on average (say for the LPs played) is 4 mm and the recommended tracking force is 1.7 needs to be 1.81 for the 12-inch arm. And when raise or lower an amount (easily measured on the SAT), that VTF needs to be adjusted correspondingly.

    That brings us to the question are the changes heard when adjusting arm height due to changes in VTF or VTA/SRA?
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers and Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
    -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 and Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

  • #2
    Funny, I was just thinking about that and told myself to forget about it. Plus there are so many other variables in the system itself one can easily drive themselves crazy, and if one does not their family will believe they are.
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R with 4point 9 arm & Kuzma 40 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum Pre Amp and Monos | Boulder Phono 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Valhalla 2/Odin: power, interconnects & speaker | Ansuz: C2 power & interconnect | Audioquest Diamond RJ45’s
    Power: Nordost QRT series | Furutech FP55SN cable from 20 Amp Breakers on grounded sub panel to Furutech GTX D NSF receptacle packages | Surge Guard at Main Panel | Keces P3 & P8 | ADD POWR series
    Other: HRS M3X | Stillpoints Ultra 6, SS & Mini | Nordost Sort Cones TC & BC | AQ Vox SE switch | Gigafoil v4 | Vicoustics | Audio Desk Systeme - Gläss

    Comment


    • #3
      As I’m just getting back into vinyl. I’m reading and watching videos. Mike F has some good ones.
      From what I see and hear it’s ultimately VTA and VTF makes the VTA vary a lot more then moving the the arm for VTA. next I found and this is my little experience in this is. The changes in thickness of the LP surface effects the VTF this leads to a VTA
      and to a greater extent what we hear.
      In trying many types of mats and there thickness it has allowed me to quickly Hear the varying in sound.
      analog stuff.
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
      Dacs lampi various

      Comment


      • #4
        Definitely with the SAT LM-09. When setting up the tonearm, the dealer strictly followed the instructions from the SAT manual regarding VTF.

        Comment


        • #5
          Like I said in the other thread, we spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on our playback gear. If we ignore one of the most critical adjustments are we getting our money's worth? VTA/SRA is critical to playback fidelity. Yes it can have an effect on VTF and it varies according to the tonearm. Personally I could not live without the change in VTA/SRA.

          How many times do we read or write about which pressing is better? Is the person writing these posts taking SRA optimization into account? I cannot count the number of times I have heard people claim that heavy weight pressings sound duller. Many of us have been in this hobby for many decades. When do we learn why heavy weight pressings sound duller? Do we understand the basics of matching a tall and thin profile stylus to the record groove?

          I like this forum because there are so many experienced people here and subjects like this one are usually understood by the members. VTA on the fly requires the hardware with that facility and it pays off but some people just do not want to be bothered. People will be people but this is a place where most people are looking for optimum fidelity.

          This issue is not critical with all styli. Forget conical styli because they do not have the issue of matching the tall and thin stylus tracing edges to the record groove. As we started to use more and more advanced profile styli, we entered into the world of critical SRA.

          Yes it can be a PIA but it pays off. Are we going to spend our money on analog playback gear and then leave part of the fidelity un-realized?

          I am pretty lazy and do not spend a lot of time worrying about VTA settings. I work around the issue by keeping a piece of paper with each LP in my collection. On that piece of paper are the optimal settings for playback. I only have to worry about this the first time I spin the LP. After that its a simple twist of the dial, or dials, to restore optimum playback.

          After living with VTA on the fly for decades now I have learned the approximate settings for many LPs. Many times it is based on LP mass and a small adjustment after that to account for mastering differences. I keep a postal scale next to my setup to weigh LPs. There are many LPs who claim to be 180gms and they are really 200gms or heavier.

          I have also learned the differences between different mastering houses. It changes over the years but there are trends with mastering for different labels. It turns you into a fan of different labels and their mastering houses.

          Ed
          Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
          https://www.edsstuff.org

          Analog: VPI Prime TT w/Walnut Plinth, HRX Pulley + 3 Belt Drive + ADS Speed Ctrl, 3D Dual Pivot Assy, Tru Lift, HW-40 Feet
          Analog 2: Ortofon Windfeld Ti + Bob's Devices VPI Sky 30 Stepup Transformer + Liberty Audio B2B-1 Phono Preamp, Stereo Squares Dust Cover
          Analog Care: VPI MW-1, Kirmuss KA-RC-1, Record Doctor V, Hunt EDA VI, AQ Brush, Discwasher Record Care Kit
          Digital: TASCAM UH-7000 High-res USB Interface, Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai Universal Disc Player, NAD C448 Internet Radio/Streamer
          Digital 2: Digital Audio Workstation (Toshiba P75-A7200 w/MS Windows 10, 24GB RAM, 1.5 TB Crucial MX300 SSD Internal Storage, Intel i7-4700MQ Processor)

          Amp: Rogue RP-9 Line Preamp, Schiit Loki Tone Ctrls, Parasound A21 Power Amp
          Speakers: Magnepan MMC2, REL T9/i Subwoofer
          Headphones: Stax Lambda Pro + SRM 1 MK II, Focal Clear + Schiit Lyr 2
          Wires: Kimber Hero ICs, Kimber 8TC Speaker Cables, AQ Leopard Phono IC, Pangea Silver USB Cables, StraightWire Expressivo ICs
          Power: Furman Elite 15 PFi

          Comment


          • #6
            Not to be the fly in the ointment but. how do we account for needle wear ? New is one sound but as it gets worn it dulls and needs a vta adjustment. As is it’s very hard to know vta alone after the arm is leveled.
            my above point being when do we use our ears to adjust. If we are locked in to a VTF alone the thickness of the lp has very little effect on the vta as I see it. It does have an effect on the Vtf though. I guess this is the chicken and egg thing lol.
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
            Dacs lampi various

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EdAInWestOC View Post
              Like I said in the other thread, we spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on our playback gear. If we ignore one of the most critical adjustments are we getting our money's worth? VTA/SRA is critical to playback fidelity. Yes it can have an effect on VTF and it varies according to the tonearm. Personally I could not live without the change in VTA/SRA.

              How many times do we read or write about which pressing is better? Is the person writing these posts taking SRA optimization into account? I cannot count the number of times I have heard people claim that heavy weight pressings sound duller. Many of us have been in this hobby for many decades. When do we learn why heavy weight pressings sound duller? Do we understand the basics of matching a tall and thin profile stylus to the record groove?

              I like this forum because there are so many experienced people here and subjects like this one are usually understood by the members. VTA on the fly requires the hardware with that facility and it pays off but some people just do not want to be bothered. People will be people but this is a place where most people are looking for optimum fidelity.

              This issue is not critical with all styli. Forget conical styli because they do not have the issue of matching the tall and thin stylus tracing edges to the record groove. As we started to use more and more advanced profile styli, we entered into the world of critical SRA.

              Yes it can be a PIA but it pays off. Are we going to spend our money on analog playback gear and then leave part of the fidelity un-realized?

              I am pretty lazy and do not spend a lot of time worrying about VTA settings. I work around the issue by keeping a piece of paper with each LP in my collection. On that piece of paper are the optimal settings for playback. I only have to worry about this the first time I spin the LP. After that its a simple twist of the dial, or dials, to restore optimum playback.

              After living with VTA on the fly for decades now I have learned the approximate settings for many LPs. Many times it is based on LP mass and a small adjustment after that to account for mastering differences. I keep a postal scale next to my setup to weigh LPs. There are many LPs who claim to be 180gms and they are really 200gms or heavier.

              I have also learned the differences between different mastering houses. It changes over the years but there are trends with mastering for different labels. It turns you into a fan of different labels and their mastering houses.

              Ed
              Remember the change in VTF with height adjustment will vary from arm to arm too. I’ve seen some people post larger changes with the new VPI 3D arms than you saw.

              One other thing to consider. Current releases are cut with a pretty standard VTA. So the major change is 180 vs. 200 g. It’s only in the early days of stereo where cutting VTAs were all over the place. So there you have record thickness combined with VTA and noting the right arm height like you do is the easiest thing. Like noting absolute phase too.
              Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
              Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
              ________________________________________

              -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
              -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers and Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
              -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 and Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
              -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
              -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
              -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
              -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
              -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
              -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
              -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

              Comment


              • EdAInWestOC
                EdAInWestOC commented
                Editing a comment
                Understood...then there is cartridge vertical compliance to take into consideration. As the VTF changes the cartridge may change the SRA based on increase/decrease in VTF.

                LIke I said in the other thread, my VPI Unipivot 3D tonearm with the Ortofon Windfeld Ti is fairly insensitive. I also own a hot rodded Rega RB300 (Incognito wiring, Michell Technoweight) with a retipped Denon DL-103D cartridge. That tonearm is mounted via a Riggle VTAF. That tonearm setup is mounted on a highly modified Denon DP-62L table. All of that is currently in storage.

                I do not remember the VTF changes caused by VTA changes. It did not cause any issues over years of usage.

            • #8
              I’m in process of dialing in my new AMG ‘turbo’ tonearm using Feikert Adjust+ software. I noted some odd behavior wrt to crosstalk and phase as tonearm was raised and lowered a little. In the Adjust+ manual he notes this too, at some levels the crosstalk curves don’t intersect at acute angles but run parallel. I don’t fully know how to interpret this myself other than in my testing what were predictable results became odd results, then became predictable again. Was it VTA effecting VTF that caused the discrepancy... could the changed VTA cause a variation in azimuth (I expect tonearm tolerances could allow this to happen, nothing says moving the arm up & down won’t effect the tower’s tilt slightly.)
              Benz LPS, AMG v12 turntable, Einstein Turntables' Choice phono-pre (balanced, dual mono version), dCS Rossini DAC, Roon ROCK, Audio Research Ref10 pre, Audio Research Ref75 amp, Wilson Alexia speakers. Transparent Ref MM2 & Gen5 signal, Ref MM2 speaker cables, Shunyata Zitron Sigma, AlphaNR, Python, Anaconda, Cobra power cables. Shunyata Hydra Triton v3, Stillpoints. HRS. Acoustic environment optimized by Dr. Bonnie Schnitta of SoundSense.

              Comment


              • #9
                Every time I setup an arm/cart I find there is a 'right place' to consider the system baseline. From there small changes for different records can be undertaken or not depending on client perspective.

                That said, given all the variables, for me the joy of listening diminishes too much if a full-on calibration effort is undertaken for each pressing / play. But thats just me...

                @Myles : I would like to learn more about how you treat absolute phase in your library (since you mention noting it in your post).

                Regards,

                Erik
                http://solypsa.com
                North American distributor for:
                Sensitive Sound MC Cartridges
                STST Turntables + Tonearms


                Available for in home setup and calibration of fine turntable systems

                Comment


                • #10
                  Eric went through initial setup on my new table. I dont have vta on the fly, so he was usng a set of playing cards. Pretty darn thin cards. It was shocking how much difference a single card can make.

                  Eric also noted, because of geometry, a small change st the tonearm pivot is a larger impact to the vta than the same change at the needle.

                  ok, here goes. Say I change to a thicker record, then add a card at the pivot. Are I not in the end trying to achieve the same geometric angle on the arm so that the vta remains constant and in the sweet spot. If i am successful at keeping the angle constant, why would the vtforce change. My angle is constant. Isn't that the point of raising and lowering the arm. Keeping the angle the same.
                  PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI Paramount preamp,
                  Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
                  Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects. ADDPower Symphony and Electraclear.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Thanks to Mike Trei. Measurements taken with Riverstone stylus force pressure gauge where measuring height = LP. Pictures top to bottom are bare platter, 2 mm mat and 4 mm mat.
                    Click image for larger version

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                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                    -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers and Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                    -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 and Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Fortunately, I don't change my mat! I set VTF and forget it. I set VTA for 180 g records and leave it alone. I have both macro and micro VTA on the fly and it takes quite a bit of change for it to be audible to me. So, I don't feel the need to vary it for record thickness.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        I’m still in the maddening stage of getting things right for my enjoyment and will hopefully soon settle. I am using the 180 gram album as the baseline.
                        Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R with 4point 9 arm & Kuzma 40 Cartridge
                        Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
                        Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum Pre Amp and Monos | Boulder Phono 508
                        Speakers: Wilson Alexias
                        Cabling: Nordost Valhalla 2/Odin: power, interconnects & speaker | Ansuz: C2 power & interconnect | Audioquest Diamond RJ45’s
                        Power: Nordost QRT series | Furutech FP55SN cable from 20 Amp Breakers on grounded sub panel to Furutech GTX D NSF receptacle packages | Surge Guard at Main Panel | Keces P3 & P8 | ADD POWR series
                        Other: HRS M3X | Stillpoints Ultra 6, SS & Mini | Nordost Sort Cones TC & BC | AQ Vox SE switch | Gigafoil v4 | Vicoustics | Audio Desk Systeme - Gläss

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by UltraFast69 View Post
                          I’m still in the maddening stage of getting things right for my enjoyment and will hopefully soon settle. I am using the 180 gram album as the baseline.
                          I think that’s a good starting point if you listen mainly to new releases. Cutting VTA and LP thickness are relatively consistent.
                          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                          ________________________________________

                          -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                          -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers and Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                          -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 and Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                          -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
                          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                          Comment

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