Audio Paradoxes

[MylesBAstor]

Isn't high-end audio full of them?

A product was recently submitted for review and despite being able to enumerate everything it doesn't do, I really, really enjoy listening to it. Amazing soundstaging, spatial recreation, midrange and subtlety. Putting on reference albums and just feeling like every recording is concert unto itself.

Then I got to thinking. Quad 57s. Koetsu cartridges. And more. Giving up a whole lot to get little magic back.

Is that a sacrifice you're willing to make?

[mep]

I felt some of these feelings while reviewing the AT-ART20 cartridge. And then every time I dropped the needle into the groove, those feelings went away as I was swept up into the music. Sure, my Etna SL does some things better, but it should for the price difference ($10k vs. $2,900). The bottom line in this case is that I don't consider it a sacrifice to be happy with the sound the ART20 brings to my system and I'm really happy to have had the chance to review it.

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/audio-technica-at-art20/

[kcin]

One thing is for certain, the paradoxes may have very little to do with diminishing returns on investment.

"Simple" SETs can be stratospheric in outlay as well as say, single driver speakers- Koetsu's are not cheap. It is a perspective or taste or version of the illusion.

I am often drawn to my ESLs and Marantz Model 2's or the Koetsu Jade. All the other modern equipment many times "forces me" to continuously improve.- its the nature of hobby and industry. I would be happy with the noted equipment... I in up to my neck in the other stuff though. However, as I get older, I think I will be searching for simpler and that just may be the vintage sound.

[rbbert]

Are your Beveridge speakers "stock"? If there are modifications or upgrades, can you describe them? TIA

[kcin]

Hi @rbbert,

I went through a many phases with the Beveridges: 1st I exchanged the stock woofers in the cabinets for modern Morel types, then I rebuilt the voltage multiplier network and cross-over with film caps, then I added an external cross-over and subs.

The final and most transformational change was to dump the internal passive cross over networks and traditional amplification and direct drive the panels with a custom amp right off the plates of the tubes. So now I have the panels run with +/- 1200v from the amps no output transformer on the amp and no step up transformer in the speakers. This led to fantastic dynamics and purity. In this config I passively cross the panels at the amp input and divert the bass to a pair of REL subs.

[rbbert]

I think Beveridge is now making direct drive amps for the Model 3. I also think Roger Modjeski made tube amps suitable to directly drive Beveridge speakers. Who made your amps? I always liked the Beveridge sound but in stock form even the Model 2sw seemed to lack overall dynamics ("micro-dynamics" were always good).

[mep]

One thing is for certain, the paradoxes may have very little to do with diminishing returns on investment.

"Simple" SETs can be stratospheric in outlay as well as say, single driver speakers- Koetsu's are not cheap. It is a perspective or taste or version of the illusion.

I am often drawn to my ESLs and Marantz Model 2's or the Koetsu Jade. All the other modern equipment many times "forces me" to continuously improve.- its the nature of hobby and industry. I would be happy with the noted equipment... I in up to my neck in the other stuff though. However, as I get older, I think I will be searching for simpler and that just may be the vintage sound.

I would love to hear what you have wrought with your modified SA-3.1 preamp with your super outboard power supply. I have always loved the Counterpoint sound, but always wished the S/N ratio was lowered. The SA-2 feeding into the SA-5.1 was a magical combo.

[kcin]

mep I think you would be delighted with SA 3.1 mod. I held a SA-2 and ARC SP 8 for over 30yrs. The Frankenstein Counterpoint is quiet and very dynamic. I honestly wonder why I pursue anything else.

The power supplies in the stock SA 3 and SA 5 are run ragged and is a great contributor to noise. Of course, with only 2 tubes in the path with phono - you need to select carefully. The primary diff between the SA 5 and 3 , the tube B+..... but also the SA 5 has a cathode follower for longer cable drive-- some have argued the the SA 3 is superior in this regard if you keep the cable lengths short.

Counterpoint was a part of my more youthful audiophile life... I enjoy it and modified I would call it killer. I have had many offers to buy it here locally.

[Rob]

the SA3.1 was my first true audiophile preamp. I bought it new from none other than Joe Harley of Tone Poet fame, this goes waaay back in case you're wondering.

[Rob]

I view a lot of gear Ive owned and still keep around as 'specialized weapons' so to speak. Like ESL 57s, I have a love-hate relationship with them and put them away before I dispose of them and regret it later. Same goes for SET amps and a lot of tube gear in general. What they do well can be exceptional and then they fall flat in other ways (like driving certain speakers, LOMC carts, etc).

[LeeScoggins]

One thing is for certain, the paradoxes may have very little to do with diminishing returns on investment.

"Simple" SETs can be stratospheric in outlay as well as say, single driver speakers- Koetsu's are not cheap. It is a perspective or taste or version of the illusion.

I am often drawn to my ESLs and Marantz Model 2's or the Koetsu Jade. All the other modern equipment many times "forces me" to continuously improve.- its the nature of hobby and industry. I would be happy with the noted equipment... I in up to my neck in the other stuff though. However, as I get older, I think I will be searching for simpler and that just may be the vintage sound.

There are no diminishing returns.

[kcin]

That's another debate. I assert that performance is not linear to expenditure in all cases, thus there may be diminishing returns.

We are talking about vintage or vintage approaches here as well... that is where the modern targets of vintage technology don't necessarily come inexpensively and may in fact perform poorly compared to a modern design.

The really old stuff has a charm- I think that what Myles was asserting - that ring to one's sensibilities that may provide great satisfaction.

The ESL is hopelessly flawed- but it does things that a modern speaker with coke can sized capacitor filters and power requirements that are un-holy could never do.

[mep]

It's ridiculous to say there are no diminishing returns, especially in audio. I also agree with kcin that performance in audio is not linear to the expenditure.

[Rust]

This will include a couple of "I know a guy" stories.

I know a guy with modded Klipsch speakers and a refreshed Mac 240 still running the original tubes from the factory, 1965 or so. The bass doesn't descend to the basement but the way it handles dynamics and especially micro dynamics at 105 dB/w is something that no electrostatic, planar or the very great majority of dynamic speaker can. Tonality is surprisingly good.

I know a guy that runs home made single driver speakers with a home kludged bargain basement solid state amplifier. The unity of the sound (the only way I can think of to describe it) in the frequency it is capable of covering is stupidly good. Whole cloth.

I know a guy with a mix and match system that isn't brilliant in any particular but does everything so well that it would probably take serious money to produce better OVERALL performance.

Three very different systems with three different voices yet they all produce a beautiful if not entirely "accurate" sound. Beauty is in the ear of the individual beholder.

[1morerecord2clean]

I have said on this forum many times before that I can find things to admire in many systems with wildly different components. The question for me seems to come down to what can I happily live with long term? Inevitably my taste seems to fall somewhere between extreme detail, dynamics, and staging. Too much of anything or too little spoils the fun for me.

[Barry]

I would love to hear what you have wrought with your modified SA-3.1 preamp with your super outboard power supply. I have always loved the Counterpoint sound, but always wished the S/N ratio was lowered. The SA-2 feeding into the SA-5.1 was a magical combo.

I have a pair of Counterpoint NP220 amps, a completely different circuit than the SA20/220, and the last design that Mike perfected before he retired. He considered it the best sounding amplifier he ever made. I made a few small power supply and coupling cap upgrades. It's a real honey. I have no interest in trying anything else even after all these years.

[mep]

I have a pair of Counterpoint NP220 amps, a completely different circuit than the SA20/220, and the last design that Mike perfected before he retired. He considered it the best sounding amplifier he ever made. I made a few small power supply and coupling cap upgrades. It's a real honey. I have no interest in trying anything else even after all these years.

My brother has a pair of the original Counterpoint Natural Progression mono amps.