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  • System transparency

    In playing with my setup , very time consuming ..... I have come to a conclusion that I think my system is pretty transparent .
    So my first question is , is this a good thing. ??
    Second question what makes it so ?
    While playing various quality of manic sources in my truck I can detect many variations but there is a point where it does matter. I am guessing this is the point where my system is not transparent enough to make it sound better .
    When I got home today I warmed my system up,for an hour and just played music period no real listening . After dinner I tried something . I played tidal m a hirez PCM download from hdtracks and finally a SACD rip of a set I own of Nora jones . While HD tracks was ok it had that dull PCM sound witha touch of glare . The tidal did sound better than 24/96 download by a margin . My last was my SACD rip now that was music good sounding music.
    So my last question is my system transparent or just plays some tracks better at certain resolutions ?
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Playback is media dependent, so could it not be both?
    Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

    Comment


    • #3
      I do not know , there is only two things I know in audio .first is I know what I like in sound and I am always open to hearing better. the second is I know little of why cause every time I think I know someone points out a fact of how I am wrong lol. did you play the water marked and not water marked ?. its amazing once you tune into it .
      analog stuff.
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
      Dacs lampi various

      Comment


      • #4
        Transparency is one of those things I have a difficult time in understanding. I mean, I only have my own system and when it sings I'm in heaven. Whether or not it's transparent I do not know. How does one gauge this?
        Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

        Comment


        • #5
          my first thought is you can hear songs quality from track to track .
          if you own Elton jonh tumbleweed connection this is a great example .
          the standout tracks are love song , come down in time and talking old soldgers just pick any other tracks and go back to any of these . the above tracks to me are far better , more dynamic , cleaner with much more presense . the others are a bit vailed . a piano track is always a great example as well . in analog form piano plays well mostly . in a digital system well its the hallmark of great dacs. while all play it, most play it poorly . transparency is in all of systems its more about having more or less of it I feel. like my truck can only get me so far and then it does not matter how bttere the source is . this was learned to me by using ciems and daps on trains in nyc . now my point is am I right in assuming that's what it is .
          analog stuff.
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
          Dacs lampi various

          Comment


          • #6
            I relate a system being able to allow you to easily discern between recordings and formats with resolution and neutrality. I could be totally at odds with the general usage so this is just my take folks.

            I take transparency in sound as a direct analogy to transparency with light. In other words, how much visibility I get between objects comparing say a foggy day to a cold, clear winter day. So I guess it is a lack of haze or blurring. How distinct is the reverb, particularly the short reflections in the recording. How intelligible are the back up singers? That kind of thing. To me it's about clarity but still within the bounds of sounding natural and not just overtly stripped. I guess my audio brain works more on the acoustic rather than the electrical plane. I was never much for using "transparency" with regards to the upstream sources.

            Again, just my take.
            Last edited by JackD201; 06-11-2016, 09:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I follow your thoughts and agree. Now here is where compromise comes into play.
              Mom my lampi dac I have a feature in dsd called no caps
              and with caps. It Bypasses a cap stage and making it more direct in the chain. With the cap on at a certain level of transparency without it it's more of what it really is.
              There are times to close is not good. Bad recordings are a good example of wanting less of it.
              As for resolutions in recordings yes I can easily tell most from one and another but keep in mind there is some really good reebok out there so hi Rez is not always what it says.
              Now when you say natruel I think you mean layered not one demention. This is true but being closer to the source brings this away from Natral in nature in that we can hear the mixin as it happens. Perhaps that's too close or a price to pay for transparency
              analog stuff.
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
              sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
              new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
              thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
              thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
              kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
              phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
              speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
              mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
              digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
              Dacs lampi various

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                In playing with my setup , very time consuming ..... I have come to a conclusion that I think my system is pretty transparent .
                So my first question is , is this a good thing. ??
                Second question what makes it so ?
                While playing various quality of manic sources in my truck I can detect many variations but there is a point where it does matter. I am guessing this is the point where my system is not transparent enough to make it sound better .
                When I got home today I warmed my system up,for an hour and just played music period no real listening . After dinner I tried something . I played tidal m a hirez PCM download from hdtracks and finally a SACD rip of a set I own of Nora jones . While HD tracks was ok it had that dull PCM sound witha touch of glare . The tidal did sound better than 24/96 download by a margin . My last was my SACD rip now that was music good sounding music.
                So my last question is my system transparent or just plays some tracks better at certain resolutions ?
                What's funny is that Jeff Joseph made some 5 hours of 24/192 digital copies of my tapes and they were as, if not more, transparent than the best digital I've heard. So the question is what is going on with the normal commercial releases? Or as I've said before, there's now more recording to recording variation in digital because of the care (or not care) in transfer.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                Comment


                • cpp
                  cpp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Whats going on, well these record labels are making music to sound good in a car or within a little tiny pair of ear buds. Case in point. I have remasters of a few classic rock albums that sound great played back in my car or via a "smart phone with ear buds", but put that album or ramp up that download in my system and it sounds horrid. Now I can take the original album and place it on my TT and now we have music. I would say, some of these record labels and record companies or business that remasters music, just my opinion of course are generating music that sounds great for the masses and the masses use portability as their audio system. And I feel my system is pretty transparent. OF course I could be totally out of it.

                • MylesBAstor
                  MylesBAstor commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Granted you are right but I was more referring even to audiophile labels. It's what they are doing before the final file is put to rest.

              • #9
                Bingo remember insaid I like digital from tape not pure digital
                while I am not an analog guy Persay
                its how I like my music. So yes what the hell are they doing to our music
                also how much or st all would it be if done in dsd 128 ?
                Here is what is funny your an analog guy as such I would tend to think you would like dsd more ? I have a friend who has a bucks up system I buy vinyl
                he rips. It's my way of getting what you vinyl guys have . Now while it's clean and nice it's only as the vinyl is meaning no better. Tape is better or closer to master right.
                Mao it's why I said what about laquers. They blow away vinyl. Is it better or just that I like the EQ they use to fix the process .
                analog stuff.
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                Dacs lampi various

                Comment


                • #10
                  Funny. I have heard that since I was amid and I am 59 now while it may be true there is nothing we can do
                  . I have seen pictures of small speakers and also headphones. While I am a headphone guy as well. I feel they are not good for mixing where they do not throw real imaging nor the correct ambience. So why don't we ask the pros who make our stuff why as well. Does anyone have a link to an album of great quality done on tape but new not from the golden error I'll buy it to prove the point
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Let's go back to the original question. Transparency begins at the source and you aren't going to get the ultimate in transparency with multi-tracked recordings. Just ain't happening. Always going to be compromised in one way, shape or form. That's what's makes those earlier 2-track recordings with minimal slicing ever so more amazing. Don't forget that each tape generation away from the master tape subtracts some transparency too. So take those 24, 32 or 48 track recordings. How many generations do you think the final tape sent for making the LP or CD are away from the master.

                    Now of course, there's digital. While I'm not an expert in it, I've had conversations with those who probably more about say ProTools than probably ProTools knows themselves. Take someone like Allen Sides. He will tell you that ProTools just is awful with multi-tracked recordings.

                    Then again, much of what affects our systems also holds true to the original recording. Equipment. Cables. Electricity. Room. What is the monitoring system. What time of the day the recording was done (that's an interesting story will share one day!). Etc. Etc.

                    Then there's the playback end and everything affects transparency. That's we spend hours, days, weeks, months, years to fine tune the system to get that point. That ever so elusive "aha" moment. That moment that takes ages and so much effort and attention to detail to achieve and that can be lost in the blink of an eye. What has the biggest impact when it comes to the home playback system? I would say having the right equipment. But for me, the things that make or break a system or make the most difference at that point are cables and power cords, vibration isolation, electricity and the room. Even a modicum of room treatment can quiet down a room and make it more transparent (perhaps it's also easier to get transparency in a near field rather than distant listening position?)
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                      Funny. I have heard that since I was amid and I am 59 now while it may be true there is nothing we can do
                      . I have seen pictures of small speakers and also headphones. While I am a headphone guy as well. I feel they are not good for mixing where they do not throw real imaging nor the correct ambience. So why don't we ask the pros who make our stuff why as well. Does anyone have a link to an album of great quality done on tape but new not from the golden error I'll buy it to prove the point
                      Not sure if it will be your style, but Samantha Crain's "Under Branch & Thorn & Tree" is a recent (2015) all analog release. Sounds wonderful and everyone I played it for at THE Newport Show loved it. http://samanthacrain.com/music
                      Steve Lefkowicz
                      Senior Associate Editor at Positive Feedback
                      -
                      Analog 1: Linn LP12 (MOSE/Hercules II), Ittok, Dynavector 10X5 MK.II Low, iPhono2/iPowerX; Analog 2: Pro-Ject RPM-1 Carbon, Talisman S, iFi iPhono.
                      Digital: Samsung 300E5C notebook, JRiver Media Center 28, Tidal HiFi, Qobuz Studio), iFi NEO iDSD, iFi iUSB3, iPurifier2, Audioquest Jitterbug.
                      Electronics: DIY passive line-stage, Antique Sound Labs MG-SI15DT-S, Burson Timekeeper Virtuoso
                      Speakers: Tekton Lore, Magneplaner .7
                      Interconnects: Morrow Audio MA1, Vermouth Audio Black Pearl, Audioquest Evergreen
                      Speaker cables: Morrow Audio SP4, Vermouth Audio Red Velvet, Audioquest Type 5
                      Digital cables: Aural Symphonics USB, iFi Gemini twin-head USB.
                      Accessories: Sound Organization turntable shelf, Mondo racks, Pangea Audio Vulcan rack, Pi Audio Group Über BUSS, Monster HTS2000 power conditioner, Kinetronics anti-static brush, Pro-Ject VC-S record cleaner, Spin Clean record cleaner.
                      Headphones: Schiit Valhalla amp, Burson Conductor Virtuoso Amp, Meze Audio 99 Classic and 99 Neo, Beyerdynamic DT770Pro 600 ohm, DT770 Studio 80 ohm, 1More Triple Driver Over Ear, 1More Triple Driver IEM

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Transparency begins at the source and you aren't going to get the ultimate in transparency with multi-tracked recordings.
                        Corollary 1: Transparency begins at the source but you aren't going to get the ultimate in transparency with output transformers in the system. ;->

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Well than what do amps do ?
                          Myles your answer is depressing lol.
                          I do understand your thoughts but I do own many multi tracks that I consider reference
                          i am not sure what makes a track great
                          the same album always has tracks that are better and worse
                          analog stuff.
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                          Dacs lampi various

                          Comment

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