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  • Warm up times

    in trying to not have stuff on when I am not home I turn my system off. It has many components
    5 nas drives and many other devices. It's all fed from a 10 kva ISO transformer that does 208 to 125 volt completely isolated from the house. I found that the quiescent current is about 6 Amps with almost nothing running
    no Amps just the nas and my msb stack
    so my question is when I turn it on it takes way more than an hour to settle in. This includes my caps but it's not the caps that's bad sounding
    my system is compleltmy solid state except for one dac
    and I have found that tubes seem to be fine in just 15
    mins

    but it seems solid state takes much longer. Any advice or other opinions of time for warm up ?
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Well, solid state devices have different thermal coefficients and different amps have varying bias schemes that impact the stasis of the amp at different times with different thermal management systems. And if you have mosfets their transconductance actually varies with temperature so there are two variables at play there.

    So not only do caps need forming but your solid state devices will be affected by temperature as well. While I run mostly tubes, my Bedini class A is very affected by operating temp and sounds like dreck until it gets hot enough to cook on.
    Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
    Brinkmann Balance & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point ,FR64S, Brinkmann 12.1 , .Koetsu Jade Platinum,Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
    Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
    Pre-Amps:Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
    Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2
    Otari 5050BXII, DeHavilland 222

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't turn mine off generally. My Pass Labs amp is in standby and my ifi Phono has no on off switch so it is intended to be on all the time. Of course if you are away on long biz trips then you could be inclined to turn off power. Yes, I find SS gear often has a long warm up period.
      TW Acustic TT with Ref motor & controller; Tri-Planar Arm; Ortofon Windfeld-Ti Cartridge, Harmonix-Combak platter mat & weight; PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp; KLAudio Ultrasonic Record Cleaner.

      Bluesound Vault-2 Music Server & Streamer

      VTL 6.5 preamp Series II
      Pass Labs 150.8 Amp

      Piega C711 Loudspeakers

      Symposium Osiris Rack; Symposium Platforms and Roller Blocks plus grade 2.5 Balls

      Acoustic Revive RR-888 Low Frequency Pulse Generator, Synergistic Research 12 UEF SE Line Conditioner, Level 3 HC AC Cord and Level 3 power cords, Synergistic Carbon fiber wall plates, Synergistic Research Orange Outlet, Furutech NCF Booster Braces, Audio Art Ref IC, MIT Oracle IC, synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria Level 3 Balanced ICs, Synergistic Research Euphoria Level 3 Speaker Cables, Synergistic Research Cable Risers.

      Sennheiser HDV 650 Headphone Amp; Sennheiser HD800s Headphones.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks all
        some of this is just to keep what little sanity I have left lol. To say it's horrible is an understatement
        and in this maddening hobby I often wonder how much is real and how much is fantasy.
        Thanks
        analog stuff.
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
        sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
        new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
        thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
        thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
        kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
        phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
        speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
        mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
        digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
        Dacs lampi various

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi, thermal stabilization is very real for solid state devices . It is definitely not your imagination. If you go over the Pass labs DIY site with Nelson Pass and do a search you will see his thoughts on the subject .Many of us will have varying opinions on his designs but there is probably little argument that he has a very good understanding of consumer based audio amplifiers and design principles that he has been willing to share over many years- for that he has my respect.

          Front end: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 Power Supplies and Volume controls
          Brinkmann Balance & RonT Tube Power supply with Kuzma 4-point ,FR64S, Brinkmann 12.1 , .Koetsu Jade Platinum,Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Lyra Atlas, Lyra Etna SL Goldfinger Statement, KLAUDIO RCM, HRSM3X
          Amps: Wyetech Topaz, Futterman H3 Quad II,Citation II, Marantz 8b, 5 ,2
          Pre-Amps:Marantz 7, Marantz Model 1 Consolette Pair
          Speakers: Quad ESL 57, Beveridge Model 3 DD amps, REL S/2 x 2
          Otari 5050BXII, DeHavilland 222

          Comment


          • #6
            I generally leave my DACS and CD's players on all the time unless we have a regular power failure. My amp, pre-amp, TT and phono I turn them on about 1 hour before I play any tunes. Why a hr, not sure, it seemed like long enough for tubes and internal SS electronics to get to an operating temperature.

            ps: good topic
            Chris
            ----------------------------------------------------------------
            Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks I owned and built a few Amps of his. For headphone use. He is a very tslented man. Unfortunately his sound type of Amps is not neutral so for headphones it was not for me. He had ones that were constant current as well something not many Amps do. His stuff is large and very cool
              looking lol.
              my msb dac takes a little time too. But my lampi does not seem to take much at all.
              now I also use small personnel Amps and caps they don't seem to need as much time really none at all in most cases. This makes me wonder why ?
              analog stuff.
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
              sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
              new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
              thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
              thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
              kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
              phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
              speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
              mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
              digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
              Dacs lampi various

              Comment


              • #8
                Al - a small amplifier has fewer and smaller components to thermally stabilize on startup compared to a honking big piece. The more parts, the more things change until things thermally stabilize, that is warm up to operating temperature.

                As mentioned in a previous post, transistors are affected by temperature, their transconductance characteristics change with temperature. One new trend in transistor amps has been the use of thermal tracking transistors to adjust bias to suit the temperature of the transistor in real time. Temperature can change rapidly from soft passages to loud peaks. I don't know how much difference that might make, the only way to tell would be to review/test such an amplifier modified so that feature could be enabled/disabled as needed for comparison.

                I think that in the case of some amplifiers with a large number of transistors in parallel in the output stages, the transistors do not warm up at the same rate and thus have slightly different transconductance curves. Circulating currents? Slightly different rise times/slew rates? I don't know. I believe it is Gamut which uses two very large MOSFET transistors per channel to minimize such interactions which certainly makes sense on paper.

                But I suppose all of that is why there are so many brands and multiple designs even within a brand, no consensus of a single best solution exists.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I can say this of the many times I posted such findings yours and others here have really made me understand it.
                  Now of ok may I ask what is your thoughts on burn in or run in. And before you answer consider this why is it always better lol.
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it depends on the equipment and it depends upon the equipment.

                    DACs take at least 24 hrs to start to sound right.
                    Tube gear depends upon the design. cj takes about an hour to sound good but for instance the GAT sounds better being left on overnight. The biggest change I hear with the cj tube gear is the appearance of air and space. Cold, not so much; after an hour, you know why cj is so special. But not going to wear my tubes out. Designs with interstage coupling transformers took hours to sound good. Don't know about the newer models but the old VAC Renaissance and Audio Note amps took about 3-5 hrs to sound their best.
                    Cartridges usually an hour of playing.
                    SS never turn off. There was a sizeable difference in sound for example between the AF amps cold and 24 hrs later. Among other things, the amps sounded much warmer (NPI). Also much smoother.
                    Electrostats take 24 hrs in general to charge up and stabilize. Before that very thin and undynamic.
                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Al - Burn in, run in, break in usually refers to new components.

                      Speakers definitely break in. Danny Richie wrote an article on it. He took new drivers out of the box and measured their electrical characteristics while being driven. As hours of operation increased their electrical characteristics changed. This was attributed primarily to mechanical changes to the spider and surround "breaking in". When turned off with relatively few hours on them, the speakers started to revert to their original condition although they did not fully revert. With more hours on them they reached an new equilibrium, not a point per se but more of a general area.

                      Capacitors to me are problematic. In certain power plant control equipment left powered down for long periods of time, electrolytic caps can loose their "form" which is a problem unless voltage to the equipment is very slowly ramped up to full operating voltage to reform, they let out the magic smoke on which they operate. Tantalum capacitors are much more reliable and preferred in this regard. Electrolytic caps also have a tendency to leak due to thermal cycling (expansion and contraction). Their values can also change over time. Of course more expensive exotic caps are better in this regard. In audio equipment the final arbiter is sound quality so the tradeoff may be better sound over warmup/forming time or even long term reliability. Finally a lot of capacitors do break in, that is reach their final electrical characteristics as they fully form.

                      Inductors change their characteristics too. Primarily from heat, but I can positively state that they can degrade over time, the permeability of the core can change over forty years. Long story, not audio equipment but very large magnetic amplifiers and if you don't know what one that is an entirely different conversation.

                      But I believe that the bottom line is things age or cure from a new condition to a long term stable condition. Not to be confused with going from a cold start to a warm operating condition. I also believe that in many instances break in is overstated and that often it is the ears acclimatizing to a new sound. YOMV (Your Opinion May Vary).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        On my second system, which I listen to the most of the time and is all solid state, I just leave the preamp and pwr amp on all the time.
                        Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks all.
                          For me first hand caps do change as I have rolled caps in headphone Amps and dacs to fine tune the sound scape I like. Mundorf caps be it silver , copper and in general have a type of sound thats not hard but still is dynamic
                          now I do have a theory on burn in too so I will post it now
                          in haveing many types of devices rolled in my systems I feel its not just the device burning in. I also feel it's us.
                          When i receive a new dac per say it takes me a while as in days to completely hear what has changed
                          it's fairly easy to hear some changes but to get it all takes a bit. Rolling many tubes has shown me this. Tubes that are nos have long been burned in and while a simple quick change yields many clues it takes some time for my small brain to completely zero in. Does anyone else feel this way ?
                          analog stuff.
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                          Dacs lampi various

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                            I can say this of the many times I posted such findings yours and others here have really made me understand it.
                            Now of ok may I ask what is your thoughts on burn in or run in. And before you answer consider this why is it always better lol.
                            These were my thoughts. I now have the newer Cable Cooker that treats the cables in less time.

                            Oh and BTW, I used the cable cooker to burn-in capacitors too. You just treat them as if they were speaker cables. So instead of having to wait a couple hundred of hours, the capacitors are ready to be soldered into the board say in 2-3 days.

                            Same goes for phono cables and tonearm wiring that without burning in is never fully ready for prime time.
                            cable cooker, positive feedback, audio
                            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                            ________________________________________

                            -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                            -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                            -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It took a week to burn in these big Duelund Cast Pio speaker crossover caps on a Cable Cooker. That was after trying to run them in with 500 hours of listening which did not work.

                              Comment

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