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  • Feet Under Audio Equipment

    David with his years of experience as hobbyist and industry member brings tons of experience to the board. Thus I thought his comment about putting feet under audio equipment interesting and deserving of its own thread. Nor do I necessarily disagree with his overall sentiment and what he is trying to point out but I don't necessarily find their use condemnation worthy.

    They say a picture is worth a 1000 words, the one in this article made every word worthless! Irrespective of personal opinion, positive or negative sticking footers under electronics has way too much impact on the sound & overall character of that equipment, why would would any reviewer introduce such a variable into the mix? I'm sorry but this is amateurish crap!

    david
    What is everyone's thoughts and experiences with using cones, footers, Stillpoints, etc under equipment? Does David's experience extend to using platforms under equipment both of say the Herzan and SRA/Symposium/HRS/CMass/ types? In the end, the question is what does a reviewer do since clearly every surface you place the equipment on affects the sound too? Little chicken and the egg routine going on.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

  • #2
    I don't use any after market feet. I've tried several, from Vibrapods to Still Points. Even the Still Points which I liked I ended up selling after taking them out for a while.
    I do use platforms on my shelves though. 2 1/2 inch maple block under my TT, and DIY platforms under the rest of my front end. They are mainly intended to add mass to the cheap rack I'm using.
    SOURCE: VINYL - EAT C-Sharp with, EAT LPS power supply, My Sonic Lab Signature Gold
    DIGITAL - Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. Roon Nucleus w/EAT Lps power supply. Auralic Aires G1
    PHONOSTAGE: AudioNet PAM G2 with AudioNet EPX power supply.
    PREAMP: Audionet PRE G2.
    AMPLIFIER: Audionet MAX monoblocks.
    SPEAKERS: YG Acoustics Anat III Signatures (upgraded to Sonja 1.2) JL Audio F112 V2 (x2)
    CABLES: Kubala-Sosna, Kubala Sosna Xpander.....Audio Desk Systeme RCM, Adona Rack, GIK & Acoustimac room treatment, Isoacoustics

    Comment


    • #3
      I only use the bottom half of Vibrapods (placed inverted) under my rubberwood TT platform. I've not tried it for any other component.
      Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

      Comment


      • #4
        Perhaps, the one thing that we can all agree is that aftermarket footers definitely impact the sonic performance, much like aftermarket power cords. The problem for me is that with many footers the gains often in clarity and focus are often offset by negatives in other areas, particularly tonality (leaning out of the upper bass and midrange).. The most successful footer that I have tried sacrifices some improvement in focus and resolution but gets the upper bass and lower mids right (Finite Elemente Cerabases). Your experience may well differ from mine.
        Rockport Sirius turntable, Lyra Atlas SL cartridge, Audio Note M9 SE Phono stage, Audio Note M10 (Signature) linestage, EMM Labs TX2/DA2 digital, Audio Note Balanced Kegon amps, EMM Labs MTRX amps, Acapella Triolons, Jorma Prime and Odin 2 cables, Stage 3 Kraken power cords, HB Marble Powerslave, Finite Elemente Pagode Reference stands and Cerabases, Halcyonics active isolation bases, HRS Equipment stand, Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers, Furitech cable isolators and plugs, Loricraft and Audiodesk vinyl cleaners, Yamaha CT7000 Tuner.

        Comment


      • #5
        Well I use footers...Stillpoint ultra's to be exact. I don't think component manufacturer's spend too much time, money or research on the stock footers they provide their component products. They are really just an afterthought made of plastic, rubber or some other combination by the vast majority of manufacturers. A given piece of equipment is going to sound different in every setup...different racks, connecting cables, component combinations, rooms, ect.... I believe you don't really know what the component sounds like until you have given it a reasonable amount of vibration/resonance isolation. Different components handle and react to vibration differently. In my system, I prefer the footers. I have had it both ways. If I felt my stillpoints adversely affected the sound of my system, I would have sold them long ago. YMMV.
        Christian
        System Gear

        Comment


        • #6
          I think the one thing we can agree on is that the results with using footers/tiptoes and the like is that the results vary from system to system and component to component. One size does not fit all.
          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
          ________________________________________

          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
          -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

          Comment


          • rockitman
            rockitman commented
            Editing a comment
            Footers fall into the same category as cabling. I think most of us agree that choice of cabling "impacts" the sound of a given system. Footer impacts, ime are more subtle.

        • #7
          When used for other than TTs, do you guys remove the original feet and replace them (is that even possible)?
          Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by Johnny Vinyl View Post
            When used for other than TTs, do you guys remove the original feet and replace them (is that even possible)?
            most of the time the stock footers are easy to remove if you want. I don't as I generally use a triangulated support of the component using 3 footers under the component and the stock footers usually don't interfere.
            Christian
            System Gear

            Comment


            • Johnny Vinyl
              Johnny Vinyl commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes! I've heard of that triangulated method many times. Something to consider for trial..although it won't be with Stillpoints in my case. Thanks!

          • #9
            well......er.....I assume 'David' is 'ddk'. and observing his room he has very substantial tables for his turntables (no accident that), what's the difference between these very heavy solid tables and footers for electronics? and also similarly solid racks (I own the same racks) for his electronics, and some he just places on the floor. his room is a basement with a concrete floor. his system does not produce much really low bass, and it's a huge room. so placing gear on the floor is not a bad thing. all his electronics are the highest level of Lamm, very expensive, with very massive robust build quality. not all gear is built that way. he does have his amps on expensive (SRA?) platforms.

            as far as a reviewer, I'd say it's bunk not discovering what allows gear to sound it's best. which most serious listeners would want to know. to me it's 'head in the sand' to ignore chassis treatment. it's what (most) any serious listener is going to do anyway.

            what use to me is feedback from a review with neutral or negative comments possibly related to resonance and no clue as to what might help it? it's a waste of my time.

            I've got a newish dac, the Aqua Formula. it's standard footers are some sort of soft material which smear transients, so I used small BDR cones instead; better clarity and focus. then I placed that on a Herzan which was a big step up. if I were a reviewer these things would be issues readers would want to know.

            if I am comparing gear, I need to first understand what it takes for it to be optimized before I judge it.

            why do people pay more attention to some people's opinions more than others? it's about the approach to finding the truth.

            now getting inside the gear and adding shielding or changing parts......that is over the line. but power cords, interconnects, and resonance treatments are just proper investigations of what it takes to optimize.

            David is also against isolation transformers, and high end cables. he has a right to all his opinions. as do other people who see things differently.
            https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

            Comment


            • #10
              I think Christian is right about manufacturers not being able to upgrade the feet on their gear, they may adopt a, "why worry about it" philosophy it if they can't justify the cost in the design budget. Can't really fault a manufacturer for not including a high priced footer like a Stillpoint Ultra solution in the price of the gear.

              My experiences have dictated that footers can change the sound.
              Footers and racks have their own particular sounds, just as Stillpoints have a very distinct sound, so like all high end audio one mans gold is another's lead.

              Stone, like granite and marble ring.
              Aluminum and steel also ring in their own way.
              Wood is pretty good with Michigan hard maple being pretty cost effective at dampening. You can even get 4'x8'x2" sheets of it for reasonable money.

              I also have customers that have spent big money on footers and swear by their choices, mainly Stillpoints and Shun Mook.
              I have a couple of customers that have spent near $100,000 on Shun Mook devices and wouldn't change a thing....

              I've shared rooms at high end audio shows with Bruce Jacobs of Stillpoints and also Bill Ying with Shun Mook and their devices do make a difference, there is no doubt. Now what you do with these devices and how you place them, that needs thought, common sense and consideration.

              Comment


              • 1morerecord2clean
                1morerecord2clean commented
                Editing a comment
                I second that. Good to be in the same room with you Greg. Hope you are coming to LA this year for a midnight soirée. Mark B

              • Greg Beron
                Greg Beron commented
                Editing a comment
                Hey Bill and Mark!

                Yep Mark, will be doing the new LA show with MBL and per tradition will be doing the After Hours Analog Tape Events!
                Will also be at Axpona same room as last year.

              • Bruce B
                Bruce B commented
                Editing a comment
                I agree with this. That's why manufacturers use generic powercords as well.

            • #11
              Definitely changes the sound- isn't that why one would be using an aftermarket footer (either coupler or decoupler)?
              I don't know if there is one size/type/brand that fits all, for any given component, let alone for how a total system is voiced.
              Nor do I think that the high priced spread is always the best answer- I don't know if you remember the small experiment I did several years ago with various aftermarket feet under the tube power supply to my Allnic phono stage- but tried 1/2 dozen devices, wound up using Stillpoint ultra SS but the Vibrapod cone plus puck was pretty good at a fraction of the price and the Aurios, which lent greater clarity and punch, also had a nasty edge of stridency.

              As to reviewer use, fair if first evaluated unadorned. Who's to say the particular product the reviewer used to optimize would work the same "magic" in all systems? (see second sentence above).

              Comment


              • #12
                Originally posted by Greg Beron View Post
                I also have customers that have spent big money on footers and swear by their choices, mainly Stillpoints and Shun Mook.
                I have a couple of customers that have spent near $100,000 on Shun Mook devices and wouldn't change a thing....
                Damn! I just about fell off my chair!
                I won't ask if Vibrapods or Herbie's feet will help.

                Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

                Comment


                • #13
                  Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
                  Definitely changes the sound- isn't that why one would be using an aftermarket footer (either coupler or decoupler)?
                  I don't know if there is one size/type/brand that fits all, for any given component, let alone for how a total system is voiced.
                  Nor do I think that the high priced spread is always the best answer- I don't know if you remember the small experiment I did several years ago with various aftermarket feet under the tube power supply to my Allnic phono stage- but tried 1/2 dozen devices, wound up using Stillpoint ultra SS but the Vibrapod cone plus puck was pretty good at a fraction of the price and the Aurios, which lent greater clarity and punch, also had a nasty edge of stridency.

                  As to reviewer use, fair if first evaluated unadorned. Who's to say the particular product the reviewer used to optimize would work the same "magic" in all systems? (see second sentence above).
                  I only review gear the way it was sent to me from the manufacturer because that is how people are going to purchase it, it's how they are going to hear it, and they should know what to expect. Reviewing gear with different power cords, tubes from your personal stash, different feet, etc. is putting you in the position of being a makeup artist or a chef in the kitchen adding your own ingredients in order to change the sonic flavor. We are already fighting variables that will affect how a given piece of gear will sound because of our unique listening rooms, quality of power, and choice of racks. I see no value in changing out components like power cords, tubes, or feet which are all tweaks because tweaks are all personal and everybody in this crazy hobby is going to argue against your choice of tweaks unless of course they own the same tweaks and then you will be considered a genius.
                  Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    What about utilizing something on top of a component. Would this be as or more effective for a piece that is very lightweight?
                    Dynavector DV20x2L MC cartridge - Genesis G7.1f speakers - Marantz Reference PM-KI-Pearl Int. Amp. - Oracle Audio Paris MkV turntable - Various Morrow & Valab/King cables

                    Comment


                    • #15
                      Originally posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
                      well......er.....I assume 'David' is 'ddk'. and observing his room he has very substantial tables for his turntables (no accident that), what's the difference between these very heavy solid tables and footers for electronics? and also similarly solid racks (I own the same racks) for his electronics, and some he just places on the floor. his room is a basement with a concrete floor. his system does not produce much really low bass, and it's a huge room. so placing gear on the floor is not a bad thing. all his electronics are the highest level of Lamm, very expensive, with very massive robust build quality. not all gear is built that way. he does have his amps on expensive (SRA?) platforms.

                      as far as a reviewer, I'd say it's bunk not discovering what allows gear to sound it's best. which most serious listeners would want to know. to me it's 'head in the sand' to ignore chassis treatment. it's what (most) any serious listener is going to do anyway.

                      what use to me is feedback from a review with neutral or negative comments possibly related to resonance and no clue as to what might help it? it's a waste of my time.

                      I've got a newish dac, the Aqua Formula. it's standard footers are some sort of soft material which smear transients, so I used small BDR cones instead; better clarity and focus. then I placed that on a Herzan which was a big step up. if I were a reviewer these things would be issues readers would want to know.

                      if I am comparing gear, I need to first understand what it takes for it to be optimized before I judge it.

                      why do people pay more attention to some people's opinions more than others? it's about the approach to finding the truth.

                      now getting inside the gear and adding shielding or changing parts......that is over the line. but power cords, interconnects, and resonance treatments are just proper investigations of what it takes to optimize.

                      David is also against isolation transformers, and high end cables. he has a right to all his opinions. as do other people who see things differently.
                      Fair question. I would think that you consider yourself someone whose opinion about audio, gear, and rooms should be taken seriously based on your experience and commitment to the hobby. Just as nobody is going to consult with the homeless about how to invest their money for the greatest return, people are going to gravitate to other people in this hobby who they admire for what they have accomplished. Having said that, why shouldn't people pay attention to what David is telling them? He has been in this hobby a long time, he has the resources to play at the highest levels of this hobby, and he has his opinions on the merits or lack thereof when it comes to cables, footers, and all of the electrical doo-dads that people place between their gear and the wall socket. It's not uncommon for people who have limited resources to pooh-pooh the idea of spending lavish sums of money on all manner of tweaks, cables, power conditioners, etc. It's quite another when you have someone like David with his long experience in this hobby telling you that in his opinion, people have veered off on the wrong track to sonic righteousness by spending money in places that he thinks will take you backwards. It doesn't mean you have to agree with what David is saying, but I for one value his insights and opinions and consider them refreshing.
                      Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

                      Comment

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