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  • Burden of clean power

    Why is it we have to bare this burden. Asside from a separate circuit our products after a certain price should be internally filtered I feel. I know there are products that it's cost preventive. But after all someone spends 20 k ona preamp I feel there is no excuse at this price point. We consumers Ina way are cheated. A few years back before I built a server and before I understood digital
    needs. I bought some spidif converters to clean the digital input to my dac. It helped some. But as I moved on to an Msb stack that was when I heard pronounced improvment
    and special power was not so important. Each of us spends good money for items to improve our products and no one seems to point at our products not being made to stop what effects them.
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Would this be local dependent? Some areas or locations suffer worse than others?
    Marty

    Comment


    • #3
      Of course are more than others. And besides rfi that all of our devices should be somewhat isolated from by nessisity. Now what someone does for tubes I have no idea. But power going past simple brown outs , spikes and sags should also be filtered. Don't get me wrong I am not claiming to have answers but I'll bet most all here uses items to fix it. In the past I thought they were nuts how ignorance can lead to blind judgement. PAUL of ps Audio a nice man makes products for this need. And I posted why not add what's needed inside to filter to a certain level. For him it's cost prohibitive but it shouldent be for s 20 k preamp.i may seem inbittered I am not of anything I am grateful for forums and what I have learned from them and like to add to them.
      analog stuff.
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
      Dacs lampi various

      Comment


      • #4
        Like most of you, I have isolated circuits, and conditioners. Like some of you, I still 'hear' problems during the week.

        I don't know about my brothers to the South, but here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio Telecommunication Council) allows radio stations to broadcast at 10x their 'normal' power output. This typically M-F, 9-5pm. I will assume the wireless network follows the same rule.

        Put simply, the airwaves are polluted during the week.

        All my listening is either late at night, or on the weekend.

        My next house will have lead lined walls??????

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't get the daytime noise but not at night ? In NYC possible due to all computers and internet with wifi. Many have the same claim. I did a post once what is the best time to listen many said at night due to noise on the lines. One thing I did add on. It never got anyone to accept it is us being the variable. I think a dim room matters and our brains being in the right mood too. I think alchohal and other foods we eat matter. Also those on meds too.
          For me if it's repeatable I agree but if I cannot I question myself.
          analog stuff.
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
          Dacs lampi various

          Comment


          • #6
            Maybe its where a person lives and what they live in, apartments/condos in some high rise and how the outside plant is engineered and installed might be a reason. A home owner has a lot more control on clean power to the home than a person sharing power with 100's of residents in a building. I just don't see an equipment manufacturers adding all of this AC protection and filtering within their equipment. The cost would of course increase to the point sales could suffer. .

            The same can be said about adding high end caps, USB filters cleanup device and even power cords. They don't add those either unless they offer a upgrade. And maybe because their equipment doesn't require all of these AC add-ons since it does conform to UL standards, who knows.. Like why pay for something that you might not need.

            Chris
            ----------------------------------------------------------------
            Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

            Comment


            • #7
              I had a $3500 Canadian back-up battery and power conditioner with 6 AC inputs and enough power to run my entire system for 40 minutes, which was in South Florida, I referred to them as 40 minutes of bliss. My system consisted of a 4-chassis tube based pre-amp, mono-blocks which had 4 genuine Western Electric 300B's per channel and a Reference Audio Mods CD player, which featured pure silver "Silver Rock" output transformers. Even with South Florida's fairly noisy electricity the difference was only moderate, less than a good tube roll or using better interconnects or speaker cables. When I moved to Manitou Springs, Colorado the difference was no longer audible, so I sold the battery back-up unit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                Why is it we have to bare this burden. Asside from a separate circuit our products after a certain price should be internally filtered I feel. I know there are products that it's cost preventive. But after all someone spends 20 k ona preamp I feel there is no excuse at this price point. We consumers Ina way are cheated. A few years back before I built a server and before I understood digital
                needs. I bought some spidif converters to clean the digital input to my dac. It helped some. But as I moved on to an Msb stack that was when I heard pronounced improvment
                and special power was not so important. Each of us spends good money for items to improve our products and no one seems to point at our products not being made to stop what effects them.
                We don't see much effect from the AC power on our preamps. They are pretty heavily regulated. But with our amps regulation is impractical and so power conditioning does seem to help.

                Audio is one of those few things where power draw might be an issue and where at the same time if the voltage sags so will performance. We have built AC power regulation into our top amplifier model (MA-3, which will run fine even if the AC is down to 100V), but for the most part adding power conditioning can have quite an effect on the price! I do think though that in the case of a $20,000 preamp power conditioning should not play much of a role.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Love your reply it is honest and helps shed some light on the topic.
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just as we live in a microbiome of bacteria, we also live today in a world of electrical noise pollution. Radio stations. Cell phone towers and repeaters. Industry on the line. Computers. Refrigerators. Where we live and where we are on the electrical grid. 110 vs. 220 V supply. The bandwidth of the audio equipment (the old PS Audio 4H was very adept at picking up Channel 2 in New York.) All this noise pollution enters the system through so many points too. Again we come back to the question of why do our systems sound different from AM to PM and day to day? The system can sound awful on Sunday mornings when everyone is home and by the afternoon when people start going out much better.

                    A buddy of mine used to have this Ham radio guy above him who must have had an illegal operation going and on Sundays this guy's broadcasts came through my his system loud and clear. Nothing he did-ferrite beads and all-did anything. And it must have been coming through his AC line. The only thing that solved the issue was a baseball bat.

                    Me thinks we should give audio manufacturers some credit for addressing these issues as they have become more aware of these issues since the early '90s. But there's only so much they can do given cost. Look at Paul's stuff at RMAF. Every piece of PS Audio equipment sat on and used his power conditioning.

                    Wouldn't be an interesting theoretical but ILLEGAL experiment to wire the equipment directly into the wall. And for those that like balanced setup. How much of the improvement is due to the electronics and how much is due to a better connector?

                    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                    ________________________________________

                    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post
                      Just as we live in a microbiome of bacteria, we also live today in a world of electrical noise pollution. Radio stations. Cell phone towers and repeaters. Industry on the line. Computers. Refrigerators. Where we live and where we are on the electrical grid. 110 vs. 220 V supply. The bandwidth of the audio equipment (the old PS Audio 4H was very adept at picking up Channel 2 in New York.) All this noise pollution enters the system through so many points too. Again we come back to the question of why do our systems sound different from AM to PM and day to day? The system can sound awful on Sunday mornings when everyone is home and by the afternoon when people start going out much better.

                      A buddy of mine used to have this Ham radio guy above him who must have had an illegal operation going and on Sundays this guy's broadcasts came through my his system loud and clear. Nothing he did-ferrite beads and all-did anything. And it must have been coming through his AC line. The only thing that solved the issue was a baseball bat.

                      Me thinks we should give audio manufacturers some credit for addressing these issues as they have become more aware of these issues since the early '90s. But there's only so much they can do given cost. Look at Paul's stuff at RMAF. Every piece of PS Audio equipment sat on and used his power conditioning.

                      Wouldn't be an interesting theoretical but ILLEGAL experiment to wire the equipment directly into the wall. And for those that like balanced setup. How much of the improvement is due to the electronics and how much is due to a better connector?
                      Yep, But ! it should be illegal to wire the homes today with (just get by) grounding if you live in sandy soil as I do (grounds change over time and should be checked) , and house wiring (loading up on poor quality breakers), and plain shoty maintained service entrances, main feeds, transformers, to pole grounding. But you can't do much for an old home or a 100 unit high raise built back in the 60's, but on a new home or if you want to pay for it, have your home reevaluated by the power company and a electrician. You clean that up and you can forget your issues at home. But try to get that corrected, its not easy but it can be done. I got mine clean at my home (breakers, grounding, dedicated wiring) 25ft addition of ground rod and the transformer at the main service entrance was actually replaced and when it was all done, didn't need my power conditioners anymore. Cost $375. Power Company, $913 electricians.
                      Chris
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------
                      Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se,Questyle Audio CMA800R LCD-3,HD800s, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I went through a similar process and experienced similar improvements; however, there is still a discernible difference in my sound between the work day and the middle of the night. Likewise, there are still voltage fluctuations, particularly in the middle of the summer when air conditioners are running non-stop. On a separate note, one of the worst offenders in a home environment are cheap switching power supplies in wall warts and rechargers. I try to ensure that I keep these unplugged when I am listening.
                        Rockport Sirius turntable, Lyra Atlas SL cartridge, Audio Note M9 SE Phono stage, Audio Note M10 (Signature) linestage, EMM Labs TX2/DA2 digital, Audio Note Balanced Kegon amps, EMM Labs MTRX amps, Acapella Triolons, Jorma Prime and Odin 2 cables, Stage 3 Kraken power cords, HB Marble Powerslave, Finite Elemente Pagode Reference stands and Cerabases, Halcyonics active isolation bases, HRS Equipment stand, Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers, Furitech cable isolators and plugs, Loricraft and Audiodesk vinyl cleaners, Yamaha CT7000 Tuner.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fcrowder View Post
                          I went through a similar process and experienced similar improvements; however, there is still a discernible difference in my sound between the work day and the middle of the night. Likewise, there are still voltage fluctuations, particularly in the middle of the summer when air conditioners are running non-stop. On a separate note, one of the worst offenders in a home environment are cheap switching power supplies in wall warts and rechargers. I try to ensure that I keep these unplugged when I am listening.
                          And lamps with dimmer switches.
                          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                          ________________________________________

                          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                          -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

                            And lamps with dimmer switches.
                            Here is a question for you...

                            At audio shows, as everyone knows, we do lots of off hours listening in the MBL / UHA rooms, we listen till way late at night.
                            Here are just two related observations, one easily explained one not so much???

                            1.) Music sounds better at night when the other rooms are closed for the night. Ok that is logical.
                            2.) We usually put lights on the MBL speakers to spotlight them. If you push the light out of the way and not directly shining on the speakers the sound gets better.
                            We did not turn the light off just stopped it from shining directly on the speaker. If I had turned off the light OK maybe that would be understandable, but the light was still on.

                            Trust me I'm not nuts, (I'm sure Bruce and MEP will add jokes here) but seriously I have witnesses to this.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Your not nuts. It's your brain doing less and more on Audio. As I live alone I can play as loud and when I want.
                              Night is always better then daytime. I think it's our brains.
                              For me mood plays into things too. If I am awake and alert I observe more. It in the end some of us like me listen more to the systems and less for pure music.
                              analog stuff.
                              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                              sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                              new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                              thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                              thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                              kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                              phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                              speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                              mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                              digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                              Dacs lampi various

                              Comment

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