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  • Bi Amping With Active Xover

    I have decided to try bi amping my setup just to hear what changes take place. I am pretty happy with it now but, I have always been curious about bi/tri amping so I am gonna give a go and see where it lands. For those interested I will setting up a active xover with two different amps, a SS amp on the woofers and my 45 tube amp on the mid/high frequency's.

  • #2
    What are you using for the active crossover ? I have been down this road a few times.
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

    Comment


    • #3
      so your saying youre bicurious....lol
      Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mono) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
        What are you using for the active crossover ? I have been down this road a few times.
        I am gonna be using a Xilica 4080 as my xover...

        Comment


        • #5
          Many years ago I owned a pair of the original Apogee full range speakers which required bi-amping. Given that my electronics were all Levinson (ML6A's, matched ML3's, I tried a Levinson active crossover, but in the end went back to a very simple passive crossover with a single Teflon capacitor. What was interesting at the time was the differences. The active x-over had tighter, better controlled bass and better dynamics but the passive unit had much more natural mids and highs with no trace of hardness at the top end. I suspect that x-overs have come a long way in the last 30 years.
          Rockport Sirius turntable, Lyra Atlas SL cartridge, Audio Note M9 SE Phono stage, Audio Note M10 (Signature) linestage, EMM Labs TX2/DA2 digital, Audio Note Balanced Kegon amps, EMM Labs MTRX amps, Acapella Triolons, Jorma Prime and Odin 2 cables, Stage 3 Kraken power cords, HB Marble Powerslave, Finite Elemente Pagode Reference stands and Cerabases, Halcyonics active isolation bases, HRS Equipment stand, Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers, Furitech cable isolators and plugs, Loricraft and Audiodesk vinyl cleaners, Yamaha CT7000 Tuner.

          Comment


          • Dr.Ears
            Dr.Ears
            Senior Member
            Dr.Ears commented
            Editing a comment
            I am still a believer that the fewer components in your signal path, the better off you are. Using matched ML3's is the best, you could have done. I have 4-ways using only first order cross-overs and limit my drivers to only one per frequency range, which eliminates many issues trying to achieve phase coherency.

        • #6
          Originally posted by fcrowder View Post
          Many years ago I owned a pair of the original Apogee full range speakers which required bi-amping. Given that my electronics were all Levinson (ML6A's, matched ML3's, I tried a Levinson active crossover, but in the end went back to a very simple passive crossover with a single Teflon capacitor. What was interesting at the time was the differences. The active x-over had tighter, better controlled bass and better dynamics but the passive unit had much more natural mids and highs with no trace of hardness at the top end. I suspect that x-overs have come a long way in the last 30 years.
          Yes they have as I understand it, also I will be using a sweet 45 type tube amp on the mid/highs and I haven't heard anything yet that sounds as good as this tube. In the end though it may just be how good the xover is and the way it effects sound quality...

          Comment


          • #7
            apparently the Xilica 4080 converts everything to digital and back again, or am I missing something? It also uses balanced XLR throughputs.

            I tried the Pass B4 xover last year, according to Nelson its the most transparent elec xover he knows how to build. its direct coupled (no caps in the signal) and uses discrete JFETs for buffering (these devices are OOP, once they're gone he cant make more B4s) the B4 can be cascaded if you want to tri-amp, quad-amp, etc.


            TURNTABLE TechDAS Airforce III | TONEARM Graham Phantom III | CARTRIDGES DS Audio Master 1 + DS003 | PHONO STAGE EMM Labs DS-EQ1 | DIGITAL Innuos MiniZen II + M2Tech Young + Palmer PS | LINE STAGE Boulder 810 | AMPLIFIERS Boulder 850 Monos | SPEAKERS Magico A5 | RACK Adona Eris 6DW | CABLES Mogami + Canare

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            • #8
              Originally posted by Rob View Post
              apparently the Xilica 4080 converts everything to digital and back again, or am I missing something? It also uses balanced XLR throughputs.

              I tried the Pass B4 xover last year, according to Nelson its the most transparent elec xover he knows how to build. its direct coupled (no caps in the signal) and uses discrete JFETs for buffering (these devices are OOP, once they're gone he cant make more B4s) the B4 can be cascaded if you want to tri-amp, quad-amp, etc.

              Hey Rob,
              So what's your point?

              Comment


              • #9
                One of the last reviews I wrote for TAS was for a pair of Brian Cheney's VMPS FF3 SRE ribbon loudspeakers (http://www.ztexas.net/for-sale/vmps/review.pdf) that needed to be bi-amped with an outboard electronic crossover. Crossovers are not all the same and can make a big difference. The crossover Cheney brought had been designed by his pal John Curl and had over 1,000,000uF of energy storage in the power supply. Cheney said he kept adding storage as long as the sound improved and then ran out of room.

                His speakers were also very sensitive to the amplifiers I used. Once I got a pair that worked (Joule Electra and Sunfire), they were seamless and sounded terrific but it was quite a process.
                Thiel 7.2s, Manley NeoClassic 250s, Wadia 850, MIT Oracle V3 speaker cables, MIT MI-350 Oracle interconnects, Black Diamond Racing Shelves and Cones in a dedicated room with ASC Tube Traps, Room Tunes and 3 X 20 amp dedicated circuits.

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                • #10
                  You enjoy your endever doing things yourself always has some level of being proud st the end. My speakers are very old and we're in need of a new cross over
                  I bought a Deqx HPD 4 complex at first but it got simple over time
                  keep in mind it did full blown crossover and room correction and anilizing too.
                  Paul is still friends with the infinity founder arnie N. he had him and his staff make a new outboard cross over
                  i got lucky to have him design and voice it. It has internal and external adjustments. One other I considered was from pass as well it's a two part unit one crossover and one psu. Many internal dip sws.
                  I think you can achieve better externally as you are planning but tiime must be given to finding its place in sound. In my lampi 45 are the sweet spot too. A 300 is hewvey and can be bloated in the bass where a 45 is detail rich and remains more neutral across the whole sound.
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by jcmusic View Post

                    Hey Rob,
                    So what's your point?
                    the Xilica relies on heavy DSP the signal goes through AD to DA converters, that would be a non-starter for me.
                    TURNTABLE TechDAS Airforce III | TONEARM Graham Phantom III | CARTRIDGES DS Audio Master 1 + DS003 | PHONO STAGE EMM Labs DS-EQ1 | DIGITAL Innuos MiniZen II + M2Tech Young + Palmer PS | LINE STAGE Boulder 810 | AMPLIFIERS Boulder 850 Monos | SPEAKERS Magico A5 | RACK Adona Eris 6DW | CABLES Mogami + Canare

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      I felt this way when I bought my first digital Cross over
                      truth is they sound different but not bad.
                      My Deqx adds details I did it have but does change the overall sound and its USB input so I do not need a dac but it's input is only pcm 24/192. now having said this I do like my new cross over better and my own dacs to use. It Is something feel I could easily learn to live with the Deqx.
                      Now here is some food for thought anyone who does EQ OR room correction is doing this method ad to da conversion. The Deqx skips one step as it inputs digital or analog and if I choose digital it's reallly a dac , cross over and room correction with timing error correction then it goes to analog.
                      Lastly goldmund systems have speakers that use there own dac and amp inside each speaker. Room correction too. They sound very good and it's a one stop shop and if I could afford one they are it. Just saying lol
                      analog stuff.
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                      Dacs lampi various

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Well true bi amping is using an active xover and different amps for each set of drivers. This way you get complete control over all the drivers, time delay, eq, phase, etc.
                        Anyway I just always wanted to hear the difference using an active setup so I am gonna try it.For those of you that wouldn't try because of the digital aspect, how does your room sound without being able to correct the faults???

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Lol read my post on my cross over settings and please look at the picture that shows the outcome to fix it with out dsp. Your right to try it and it has many virtues too. For me I use the deqx4 for a rs1b setup that I triamp. They sound fine and more detailed. What they and my IRS v lacked when I used it on them was weight. It did two things I did not like
                          one was it removed weight the second was air around the music. I was able to easily remove the device to do quick AB Comparisons. Goldmund usies this method with an amp and dac for each speaker. I can say as I heard them they are amazing in everything. Grest sound is what you like and for anyone to tell you how it should sound is for me not fair. Give advice yes but we each have our views on tone and the rest that goes with it.
                          Min my case if I had dsp to adjust the phase of each woofer tower it could be setup normal. I might try dsp for just the woofer columns but I think this will delay them and add to uneven time alignment. I think moving them fowward might help that is it all worth it.
                          analog stuff.
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                          otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                          sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                          new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                          thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                          thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                          kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                          phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                          speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                          mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                          digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                          Dacs lampi various

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                            Lol read my post on my cross over settings and please look at the picture that shows the outcome to fix it with out dsp. Your right to try it and it has many virtues too. For me I use the deqx4 for a rs1b setup that I triamp. They sound fine and more detailed. What they and my IRS v lacked when I used it on them was weight. It did two things I did not like
                            one was it added weight the second was air around the music. I was able to easily remove the device to do quick AB Comparisons. Goldmund usies this method with an amp and dac for each speaker. I can say as I heard them they are amazing in everything. Grest sound is what you like and for anyone to tell you how it should sound is for me not fair. Give advice yes but we each have our views on tone and the rest that goes with it.
                            Min my case if I had dsp to adjust the phase of each woofer tower it could be setup normal. I might try dsp for just the woofer columns but I think this will delay them and add to uneven time alignment. I think moving them fowward might help that is it all worth it.
                            That's the idea using the active xover you can adjust all the delays to be correct. Also my speakers are horns with horn loaded bass so there has to be correction to the mid/tweeter sections to match the slower woofers. Using the passive xovers with all drivers connected to them introduces feedback from the woofers and that will muddy up the upper frequecy's, hence removing the woofers and putting them on their own SS amp. This make my 2 wpc amp much better!!! Ok I took a look at the manual of the B4 no delay settings, that is a show stopper for me...

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