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Have Record Collectors Done a Service or Disservice to High-End Audio???

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  • Have Record Collectors Done a Service or Disservice to High-End Audio???

    Sure we'd all agree that there's value in knowing what's the best sounding pressing of a given recording to own. But collectors often go beyond and turn their noses up at any other release of that recording. As a result, audiophile's are hesitant to buy any other pressing thus impacting the companies currently pressing LPs. Without companies pressing new albums, turntable manufacturers and analog in general would be history in short order. After all, it was companies such as Classic and Acoustic Sounds that kept analog alive during its darkest days.

    I know now that I listened to some of these collectors and now rue not buying some of these rereleases today. Does being not quite the original make a recording bad? Truthfully, if everyone were honest, there are always trade offs between the original and reissues - not to mention a host of differences that we don't always know about. Not to mention missed out on some good music too that I'm just slowly recouping today.

    Face it. Not everyone has the time, money or interest in searching-sometimes for years-for a given pressing. All they want to be able to do is order the record, clean it and put it on the turntable.
    19
    Yes-disservice
    15.79%
    3
    No-helped
    52.63%
    10
    Undecided
    31.58%
    6
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
    -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

  • #2
    No question in my mind that w/o collectors there wouldn't be a vinyl business as we see it today. If not for 'collectors' driving up prices of original Blue Notes or early stereo classical records by RCAs, Merc, Deccas etc, there wouldn't be a financial incentive for anyone to reissue them in the first place. think about that. Ask any reissue company of note where they get their inspiration it's from collectors. Ask Chad what drives him and it's to please the throngs of collectors that push him to out do himself and bring to market the very best reissue of a particular recording; whether it be remastered by someone sympathetic to audiophile sensibilities or going to 'one step', 45 rpm whatever. Do they always succeed? no. Does that stop me from acquiring reissues? I may hesitate but no. If someone says they (Acoustic Sounds, et al) fell short and the original 1st press snuffs the reissue how is that a disservice to anyone?

    Comment


    • #3
      Myles are we talking about collectors or reviewers? I fondly remember Sid Marks, and found his columns on RCA doggies and Merc Living Presence to be informative. Surely they drove up the desirability and price of these records, as did Harry's List, but they were, back in the day, one of they big sources for audiophile reference recordings. I suppose Fremer and you and a bunch of others who write reviews also perform this service, largely for new, in print material with little downside to buyers other than perhaps they get a bad copy or disagree on the sonics or music.

      But here's where I'm stuck---record collectors and audiophiles have some overlap but like one of those Venn diagrams, there's an awful lot of space that is occupied purely by what I consider to be two different pursuits. I know record collectors who have very little in the way of serious hi-fi. A fair amount of super collectible stuff isn't necessarily about the sonics, it is rarity. I know audiophiles who are largely buying issues or reissues from MoFi, Chad, the old Classic Records and a few other houses, Harmonia Mundi? Lyrita? EMI ASD? Decca? But, these have been highly regarded in audiophile circles for years-- when I think of collectors, beyond the stuff I mentioned, I'm thinking of some deep, obscure stuff or stuff that has collector value having nothing to do with the sonics, e.g. the first Dark Side UK pressings were largely /2/ on both sides; I have some with that matrix and it is grainy. The /3 is better sounding, and a fraction of the price, except it is not an uber collectible. In other words, I think the world of records desired by audiophiles is in many ways very distinct i from the world of the collector of rare or obscure pressings. Where is the influence by collectors on audiophiles who are being misinformed about records because only a first pressing will do? Rare records command money. Records desired by audiophiles may or may not be rare. There's also pricing. Some people don't want to pay 50 bucks for a decent reissue. On the other hand, a lot of the records I have been chasing are easily high three figure records or more and I'll buy a reissue as a placeholder. I'm kind of done with accepting so called VG+ copies of desirable records to save money. I'm guess I'm not seeing the connection here. (Another thing that's good about a diligent record reviewer is comparisons of pressings for sonics- often, as you know, the best sounding one isn't the first pressing, it could be some standard issue that, for some reason, just sounds better. I could name several examples of this). These garden variety records- think the RL Steely Dan Greatest Hits- are pretty unaffected by those buying desirable records, whether you call them collectors or not. FWIW, despite my penchant for this stuff, I don't consider myself a serious "collector" but a guy who likes certain things and is willing to pay for them (sometimes). I wish they were cheaper, but had I been on to, say Vertigo Swirl 10 years ago, I could have saved a bundle. Maybe that's what you are talking about, but that's me being dumb, not the fault of the people who knew this stuff.
      Last edited by Bill Hart; 07-02-2017, 05:02 PM.

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      • #4
        Collectors make the originals AND the reissues desirable.
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        • #5
          Does being not quite the original make a recording bad?
          I can't imagine how it would.

          Buying used records - even those that look Gold Mine NM unplayed - is a crap shoot.

          Buying new reissues can also be a crap shoot but we learn who tends to make good ones (Spkrs Corner, Analog Productions, etc.) and who doesn't. The opportunity for a brand new clean mint copy of a desirable record has tremendous appeal.

          Issuances between the original and the modern reissue is where things get murky. During the 80s and 90s record companies started I'll be generous and say using "less care" and cheaper thinner vinyl. One off or smaller labels reissued lots of records.

          On the other hand sometimes and unexpectedly it is not that hard to find sealed originals. Just the other day, I was way surprised to run across this sealed double EMI, located in Belgium for not much more in today's dollars than it originally went for.

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Shostakovich Sym 5 and 10 SLS5044.jpg Views:	1 Size:	10.8 KB ID:	58118

          Imo, if you go into record collecting with an eye on dollars - granted we each have our means - you'll probably get dissapointed at some point over what you could have bought. Back in the late 70s and 80s when I was much more into rock I started buying classical records and early audiophile recordings (some losers, think Mannheim Steamroller) because I was confident that when I got older my classical training would reassert itself and my tastes would shift. I just bought them, I didn't play them until later in life. My gamble paid off. But I still missed the early rounds of Classic Records issuances - happily reissues of reissues are available with better production values.

          I don't believe that audiophiles are "hesitant to buy any other pressing [than the original] thus impacting the companies currently pressing LPs" - witness presses at capacity. The production of new classical recordings has muchly been left to orchestras so reissues are a large part of the classical lover's opportunity. Rob's points above are good ones - nobody is doing a disservice to high-end audio. Here's hoping the awareness of the possibilites of quality reproduction continue to expand.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't own any records but in my digital
            collection I spent a few grand buying them and having them ripped to dsd 128 and 64. I always listened to what vinyl junkies said to buy. Having said that and this whole ultra hi end audio market does anyone know what percentage of vinyl purchases are for nuts or just reg audio people. please I consider myself one the nuts . A colllecor I think is great for the obsession of having what not many do. Chad being a smart businessman does both analog and digital giving us in the digital domain plenty of rare recordings. I think Myles has a good idea of who buys what but havin said that thinks there is more of us then normal buyers this question and it's answer is key to
            myles post.
            Many years back when I raced cars I would seek out who knew what was cutting edge for performance. It was not just parts it was also what you did to the hiend parts.
            Example
            polishing the intake manfold or tunning the exhaust

            what I think chad does is this he takes what he deems best and does what he does to make both analog and digital formats great. A collector is one who thinks they know what is the best and shares this. The question is does this stop others from buying vinyl. Not deemed best by that colllecotr. While I get and used this concept I now feel we all must read between the lines as to what is better as we each have our own likes and what others say
            is important but not paramount.
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
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            Dacs lampi various

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post
              Collectors make the originals AND the reissues desirable.
              Spot on JC,
              Chris
              ----------------------------------------------------------------
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              • #8
                Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post
                Collectors make the originals AND the reissues desirable.
                Yes, but my point JC, was that they weren't necessary buying the same things- collectors and audiophiles. That's where the disconnect is for me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post

                  Yes, but my point JC, was that they ween't necessary buying the same things- collectors and audiophiles. That's where the disconnect is for me.
                  to your point Bill, if the collectors that you and I know don't collect on sonic grounds they also don't chase a 1st press because it may sound better but merely because its scarce. I've found this group to be more apt to buy rare CDs too because it's about chasing after scarce objects at the end of the day. As far as the high-end labels are concerned, this group is the least influential because they collect for reasons that don't involve sonics per se.

                  I'm a completist by nature (its a horrible disease for which there's no cure ) whether its a series of publications, music whatever so my motivation is different than the next guy that simply wants a specific title/issue and has no interest in collecting for the sake of collecting.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rob View Post

                    to your point Bill, if the collectors that you and I know don't collect on sonic grounds they also don't chase a 1st press because it may sound better but merely because its scarce. I've found this group to be more apt to buy rare CDs too because it's about chasing after scarce objects at the end of the day. As far as the high-end labels are concerned, this group is the least influential because they collect for reasons that don't involve sonics per se.

                    I'm a completist by nature (its a horrible disease for which there's no cure ) whether its a series of publications, music whatever so my motivation is different than the next guy that simply wants a specific title/issue and has no interest in collecting for the sake of collecting.
                    Yeah, I'm talking about record collectors in the scarce object sense, not audiophiles. Two totally different worlds- sometimes they overlap. I've actually had collectors help me find stuff they aren't interested in- they'd come across something when hunting and let me know. I've learned to become not a completist- I think originally, with Vertigo, that was my aim, but some of the later stuff on Swirl just wasn't to my taste. I have a lot of pink labels, but again, what's the difference sonically? The ones pressed at Orlake (largely during the bulls-eye era) are really good sounding, but inherently noisy. The Polydor pinks tend to be a little less etched than the EMI pressed ones, but at a certain point, Island switched to EMI, and then we went to pink rim, almost all of which are EMI- I don't think they used any metal parts from the Polydor days, though I have one pink rim with the same matrix as my pink label-- a Polydor styled matrix- for Tons of Sobs. Killer album. I'm into it enough to geek out on this shit, but collect for music, not rarity or sonics, per se (though it is a happy coincidence if the thing sounds good). One person I know (he can shout himself out if he wants) blames the Russians for the crazy price bump after the crash.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am what most people would consider as a collector. My pursuits have been almost exclusively in classical vinyl, both audiophile and non. I have accumulated 15,000+ records over 5 decades, with 90%+ classical (as well as 1K tapes). About 40 years ago I bought a copy of The Absolute Sound (issue 6 or 7 IIRC) and HP was just starting to recommend recording which morphed in a year or so into his Super Discs list. I started buying records on the list (both classical and non) mainly to learn about new music and hear what really good sounding records were like. It, not coincidentally, was a time when I started to buy higher end stereo equipment. Some time later (I think about 30 years) I had completed my collection of the TAS Superdiscs (some 600 records including all records that had ever appeared on the list - not including all variations in pressings, but almost all early pressings). I learned much about American composers from the Mercury records I bought as well as British composers from the Lyrita records I bought. I found, both by reading and listening, that Lyrita, Decca and EMI were great labels and I started to collect them very seriously about 20 years ago when we started going to the UK with increasing frequency. I would buy any Lyrita, Decca (including Argo and L'Oiseau Lyre) and EMI non-digital classical record I didn't have, mostly cheap to very cheap (usually paying 1 to 10GBP from the many, at that time, used record shops in London), augmented by the fine, at the time, Amoeba and other record shops in the Bay Area and a few others around the US. I would occasionally splurge on an early Decca wideband, or and EMI ASD three digit white/gold label, but those were the exceptions. As my collection and finances improved, I would do more splurges (say up to 100GBP) for rare records. Of course, I would often find a valuable gem in some bin for a few pounds or dollars, and that is how I found some of the priciest albums in my collection.

                      Currently, I have just about all the Decca, Argo, L'Oiseau Lyre, Lyrita, EMI analogue stereo recordings, so my want list is quite short, and most of those are extremely pricey. I also have collected the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence as well as Harmonia Mundi France but not with the completeness of the Deccas and EMIs. New copies of Reference Recordings, Sheffield, Chesky, etc were pretty easy to find and I generally have complete collections of those.

                      My label collections compose about two-thirds of my records, the others are records that I bought to hear the piece or the performance. Lots of opera and other classical music and a smattering of pop and jazz.

                      I will buy reissues, typically for those records that are very difficult/expensive to buy in fine condition used. Sometimes, I get them because I think the repressing is better than the original (like many of Chad's reissues of the RCA Living Stereo).

                      Most of you know that I have digitized most of my collection (about 10,000 records and 1000 tapes), starting about 7 years ago. The project took 6 years and is essentially complete, although I do continue to rip most of relatively few records that I buy each year. I have been very pleased with the rips I have done. It took me about a year to put the pieces together to do the rips, helped by some very fine consultants. I rip everything at 192/24 PCM (DSD did not become available until after I started the project). I use a Pacific Microsonics Model Two with Merging Technologies Pyramix software and Mykyrinos card, and Izotope RX3 Advanced for post processings (click and crackle removal as needed). The collection is close to 40TB (backed up four times, including a copy stored in my local bank safe deposit boxes.)

                      Larry

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                      Comment


                      • astrotoy
                        astrotoy commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Just the ADS. The vast majority of the records I buy are in pretty clean condition. I think both buying in the UK and buying classical helps. But I also use the Air Tight Record Flattener as needed. Larry

                      • Rob
                        Rob commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Larry, i'd burn my collection to have yours you inspire us all, thanks for your contributions over the years its always informative.

                      • astrotoy
                        astrotoy commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks, Rob. Larry

                    • #12
                      I collect records for the music and am detached from "the record" or "the pressing" pursuits I'm good with most decent average pressings. If anything I believe that the current analog boom is built on the back of old records, still relatively abundant and inexpensive. Some of the better reissues plug holes in my collection but I wouldn't build a system around them and I find so much of the audiophile pressings unlistenable, still trying to stomach 180-200 gram vinyl!

                      The lack of new analog recordings, high costs and mediocre quality of current vinyl production is what will eventually kill vinyl for good this time.

                      david
                      Manufacturer: American Sound Turntables and The Nothing Rack
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                      • #13
                        Originally posted by david k View Post
                        I collect records for the music and am detached from "the record" or "the pressing" pursuits I'm good with most decent average pressings. If anything I believe that the current analog boom is built on the back of old records, still relatively abundant and inexpensive. Some of the better reissues plug holes in my collection but I wouldn't build a system around them and I find so much of the audiophile pressings unlistenable, still trying to stomach 180-200 gram vinyl!

                        The lack of new analog recordings, high costs and mediocre quality of current vinyl production is what will eventually kill vinyl for good this time.

                        david
                        Just for point of reference, which new reissues do you like David?

                        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                        ________________________________________

                        -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                        -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                        Comment


                        • david k
                          david k commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Don't know but it's possible. I have various tts from a Garrard 301 to the some very exotic ones my opinion remains the same listening to heavy vinyl on any of them but then again none of the tables are overly live or dead and I prefer a livelier sound balance to a more dampened sound.
                          david

                        • MylesBAstor
                          MylesBAstor commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Reason I bring that I've had widely and wildly divergent reactions to reissues depending on the table used. I might bring something over to a buddies system that sounds great here and like crap there. And I'll bring something that sounds great here and great there. Yeah different systems but not enough to account for what I am hearing. So perhaps a relationship between the liveliness of the platter/record interface/record weight/thickness. After all, everything is a balancing act. So thinner (livelier) record on a deader platter might sound better than a thicker/heavier (deader) record on a deader platter? All supposition though.

                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Part of the vexation? and the beauty and the joy of vinyl. Soooo many choices and combinations.

                          There's so many people to see
                          So many people you can check up on
                          And add to your collection
                          - EC, Accidents Will Happen

                      • #14
                        I am a listener first, collector second. My persuit of the best sound/performance(s) requires I collect certain vintage titles which are both rare and expensive, hence collectible. I'm conflicted with the poll so undecided here.
                        Christian
                        System Gear

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                        • #15
                          Record collectors have helped Vinyl production and helped keep the medium alive through the dark days. We are witnessing the rebirth of vinyl production and some of the best LPs pressed are being produced now. There are those who claim nothing but originals are the LPs to have and there are those who adhere to reissues.

                          I think either point of view is flawed. It is prejudicial and subject to mistakes. The best pressing of a LP can be either an original or a reissue. Neither guarantees superior sonic abilities.

                          If we rewind to the late 1970s, the state of vinyl LP production was awful. MoFi and others caught on partially due to the lousy state of original pressings. Let those who claim originals are the only way to go please remember those days.

                          I own a large number of 1st pressings and a large number of audiophile pressings. I also have a large number of UK, German and Japanese pressings. I don't care where the LP came from or whether it is an original or a special audiophile pressing. I care that the LP sounds good. It seems to me that factor is not unique to any type of pressing.

                          The reissues are a great source of some dammed fine LPs. Now that the LP is the medium of choice for high resolution listening, there are many 45RPM and special audiophile reissues to be had. Not all of these are great but some of them are dammed fine LPs to own.

                          Those of us who love our LPs should thank the owners of labels like Classic Records, Cisco, Analogue Productions, Mobile FIdelity Sound Lab and DCC (just to name a few). Those are some of the people who kept LPs alive. In spite of a very small market they licensed interesting titles and produced some nice pressings. It is the specialty labels who kept producing LPs, not the major labels. If not for the reissues, LP production would have stopped totally.

                          Ed
                          Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
                          https://www.edsstuff.org

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