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How fast is fast enough , and when is it too fast.

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  • How fast is fast enough , and when is it too fast.

    We each I think have grown to love a certain speaker type and even if we have changed that type over the years the hiw it did before memory is still there as we hear it as it is now.
    In headpnoes stats are the fastes of hyper detailed sound , same or simaler for speakers . Attending shows is a pretty cool thing as we go from room to room the sound scape varies greatly . The ones we like I feel are a long learned taste over our lifetime. The most detailed seems to be stats , but this is not really true in all ways. What a very fast head phone or speaker lacks is texture or weight , where for me a ribbon has. Or a horn has. Cones do too but for me most don't.
    Can someone explain to me the difference between speed and dynamics ?
    My understanding is speed is not dynamics . Dynamics is both speed and weight , am I right ?
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Well first of all don't confuse dynamics with dynamic range as these are two different things (see definition below)..

    dynamic Giving an impression of wide dynamic range; punchy. This is related to system speed as well as to volume contrast.
    dynamic range Pertaining to a signal: the ratio between the loudest and the quietest passages.

    Speed is self-explanatory; the transducer's ability to respond to the musical signal and rythmic pace of the music. The real test is fast, dynamic transient passages. True ribbons do this well; the RAAL ribbon tweeters being a good example Though advances in materials science and manufacturing have led to light, extremely stiff materials like diamond-coated berylium, graphene-reinforced carbon Nano-Tec & sandwich construction ceramic, thus to my ears atleast speakers like the Magico M3/M6 and Marten Coltrane 3 now compete head to head with the best ESL's and Planar speakers in this area too.

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    • #3
      Speed is micro resolution. How quickly the transducers translate the smallest fluctuations of current into pressure. In audio dynamics is the relationship between variations between the lowest and highest signals/sound pressure level. The Holy grail is to have loads of both. This doesn't sound like a racehorse on meth as one would typically associate with speed but rather the sound is smooth and articulate at the same time. On the dynamic side, be both relaxing, downright scary and everything in between. Honestly if it weren't for classical music I'd probably be extremely happy with just good tone.

      I'm still chasing

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      • #4
        I own a set of IRS v. Compleltly redone to a point I'll bet no one has gone as far as me. But having said that where do they fit in ? I heard myles and yes they lack nothing to me. Fast and subtle yielding high details at any level.
        Any idea.
        analog stuff.
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
        sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
        new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
        thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
        thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
        kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
        phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
        speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
        mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
        digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
        Dacs lampi various

        Comment


        • #5
          my perception based on experience is that it's not that hard for a dynamic cone speaker to be fast in the highs or mid range. a few years back I owned Stax 007's and 009's with a couple excellent headphone amplifiers so I get what you mean in terms of speed.

          the issue is always the mid bass, and lower bass in terms of speed and agility/articulation (2 attributes very related) for cone speakers. you have a number of problems to overcome. first; typically you have a crossover in the middle of the mid bass, around 100hz-150hz, right in the heart of the most critical frequencies for where the music lives. second, you lack adequate driver surface in the mid bass and so considerable cone excursion is needed (making linearity more challenging). third, the amplifier is most stressed trying to keep up with a full tilt boggie drum kit or horn or vocal in these frequencies.

          my MM7 twin tower speaker system is magical in it's speed and agility to my ears, and a huge reason is that it fully answers these challenges in this frequency by using -4- 11' ceramic woofers to cover 40hz-250hz. so (1) no crossover, (2) over the top level of driver surface allowing minimal excursion and retaining electrostat-like speed, and (3) 97db, 7 ohm load to allow the amplifier to stay linear regardless of the musical peaks rendered.

          too fast is when you have information without tonality. typically is when either a design is flawed or things get hard from being over-stressed.
          https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615

          Comment


          • #6
            Great reply. I have read you want to have the entire midrange in one driver be it multiple or single but no cross over in it.
            Its why my and others only do a three freq and two cross over points. Cohesive is why they do this. I don't know what is best but there are other views to this I think.
            My setup crosses over at 70 to 100 variable and curves
            I use the 100 as I feel it adds clarity to the mids
            it is easily heard to me. Maybe it's driver dependent as well. Mike you make a very good point. There are speakers that have 3/4/5 cross over points the rs 1B is a four way type and I love them. But I always felt they are a smaller version of the IRS v. But not s true line source in many ways. So a little brother from a another mother of sorts
            analog stuff.
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
            otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
            sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
            new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
            thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
            thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
            kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
            phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
            speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
            mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
            digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
            Dacs lampi various

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
              my perception based on experience is that it's not that hard for a dynamic cone speaker to be fast in the highs or mid range. a few years back I owned Stax 007's and 009's with a couple excellent headphone amplifiers so I get what you mean in terms of speed.

              the issue is always the mid bass, and lower bass in terms of speed and agility/articulation (2 attributes very related) for cone speakers. you have a number of problems to overcome. first; typically you have a crossover in the middle of the mid bass, around 100hz-150hz, right in the heart of the most critical frequencies for where the music lives. second, you lack adequate driver surface in the mid bass and so considerable cone excursion is needed (making linearity more challenging). third, the amplifier is most stressed trying to keep up with a full tilt boggie drum kit or horn or vocal in these frequencies.
              Great system and post Mike. I just had a couple of observations...firstly to me 100-150hz is the upper bass. Mid-bass to me is from 40-80Hz. Secondly to me the most critical frequencies are the upper mids (presence region) where human hearing is the sharpest from 1kHz - 3kHz. Your comments about driver surface vs excursion rate are spot on. That's why Magico increased the excursion rate of the S5 Mk2's twin 10" bass units to 15mm linear movement (twice the S5 Mk1). Interestingly, the S5 Mk2's crossover to the midrange around 300Hz and between 2.5-3kHz to the tweeter, meaning the midrange drivers handle the critical presence region.

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              • #8
                A loudspeaker, just like an automobile, can never be too fast.

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