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Digital Killed The Radio Star๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ

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  • Digital Killed The Radio Star๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ๐ŸŽถ

    OK I fudged the subject line but the song was playing in my head. This is what I really mean- Digital audio is responsible for the lack of interest in high end audio by the younger generation. Most of us in the hobby are, say, 29 plus. We grew up with records and tapes, maybe CDs later in our hobbies. Playing an album was a tactile, visual, magical thing. They were also valuable and we had to save to buy them. We LOVED our albums and we still do. I know that some of us are digital only now but your musical habit is by now in your DNA - thanks to analog.

    i just don't see our kids as loving music the way we did. I know that there are exceptions but we all see what's happening...

  • #2
    I thought you meant internet streaming has killed conventional am/fm radio. Well for home use, it has for me, it sounds better in most cases.
    Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Shelter 501 Mark II Cart (St) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (St) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (St) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (M) , Luxman Tonearm (M) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (M) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Teac A3300SX R2R, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, DIY Silver Interconnects

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    • #3
      """ Digital audio is responsible for the lack of interest in high end audio by the younger generation". Don't buy it . Its the expense unless they buy used. I blame the lack of interest on high prices and just plain old person snobbery by the high end market,. Case in point. I was down at a local dealer last week, I was chatting with the salesman who was in his mid 50's early 60's, whom I had only met once, in walked two 20+ year olds, dressed nice, they were looking at speakers. The salesman asked them what they had, they told them Marantz AVR, CD player, IPOD and docking station and some old Polk speakers. The salemens basically in so many words when all was said and done , their stuff was low-fi and picked up an incoming call and thats the last time he spoke to the kid, no effort no nothing,. . I left and the kids walked out and got into a 2017 BWM M3. I gave them a name and number to a dealer in Jacksonville whom would be happy to work with them. Snobbery will kill interest in a hobby ;.

      My feelings, Digital can be high -end and can get close or equal a TT. It all depends on the setup of each and the matching of components to the users preference and what I like about real audiophiles, it doesn't matter if its digital or analog its how the music sounds. .
      Chris
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
      Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se, HD800, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

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      • #4
        I kind of disagree here. What keeps younger people from high end audio is how it is presented to them. My son grew up with it and has a good system. but his friends all want good systems when they can afford one.

        I made sure they knew that the music they liked was simply more fun to listen to on a good system. I never used words like "serious" or "critical" when talking abut listening. I never told them they needed to listen to "better" music, or tried to demo to them with classical or jazz or any audiophile demo tracks. Just played what they liked and they loved it.

        Already have a few of his friends around the 25 year old mark starting to ask me about helping with a new system. I will actually keep them away from other audiophiles so as to not scare them away or make them change their mind!

        Old guard audiophiles and the pretentious attitude of the industry is why younger people don't have an interest. Saw that big time in most of the rooms at THE Show this past weekend.
        Steve Lefkowicz
        Senior Associate Editor at Positive Feedback
        --------------------------------------------------------
        http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...ounding-system

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        • #5
          I think digital has made audio convenient and available in almost every device. The fact that the younger generation grew up listening to digital on portable devices (mostly), plus they listen to only those songs that are popular hurts musicians. Many years ago the music business sought out new talent and supported them with the hope that they would return the favor by creating something profitable.

          The music industry changed with the advent of digital and they only wanted the loudest and most popular acts. The creation of great album content meant nothing and the sales of albums suffered. Downloads also played a part. It takes more time to download the whole album and more time to sit and listen to the whole album. Music changed and not for the better. The convenience of changing tracks via digital changed listening habits.

          Those of us who grew up on vinyl sat through entire albums. Where would a group like Led Zeppelin be in this day and age? Their first album didn't have a number one single but it was a work of art. How many digital download kids would choose to download LZ 1 if it were new today? It still would have some support because talent is undeniable but popularity is another matter. There are many talented acts out there but the support is hard to come by.

          If the music industry would ante up and support new acts we would all benefit. The problem is that the finances of the industry changed with the lower album sales. There is a lot less to make on a single vs an entire album. Digital did more damage than many of us would believe. It wan't intentional and the music industry would change things if they could turn back the clock.

          All major changes have benefits and prices to be paid. Digital promised better sound (something I don't subscribe to) and delivered convenience in spades.

          Yesterday I was reading about new digital technology that recreates listening spaces and speaker performance parameters. I spoke to a salesman I know and trust and this stuff is for real. I believe the name of the thing is the BACCH-SP Adio. I'll try and look up the other details but the benefit of this new technology is that the device can reproduce the sound of different speakers and rooms. You can make your system sound like Myles system and vice versa.

          Supposedly it is very convincing. The salesman I mentioned is not prone to making false statements and he says this really works. The price tag is not cheap for this device. IIRC it sells for $28k but if it does what he says it does it could be a game changer. I know it works very well via headphones and well via speakers but I have not heard it personally.

          What will be the impact of this technology? Why spend the money on this or that high end component when you can have its sound via a filter file? If its as convincing as I've been told then our world of high-end audio may be in for a change. How many high-end manufacturers can survive something like this?

          The above device's impact on high-end audio could have as much an impact on our high-end world as digital audio had on the music industry. I, for one, don't want this kind of change. I am 65 years old now and what I want does not drive what will happen. It is what young people want.

          They may not be in the market for high-end audio but they are the future and manufacturers know our generation is dying off. A smart manufacturer will market to a segment of the population that will be there in the future. Unfortunately those of us who grew up with vinyl are not that market segment.

          I have no idea what will happen to my system and my record collection when I pass on. Something tells me my records will end up at a dealer and will be resold piece by piece. The components may be picked up by other audiophiles but none of my children show any interest in quality sound. They have heard it and their eyes grow very large. They love what they hear. I am sure my HiFi Man HE-400S and my Focal Clear headphones will be passed onto my kids but my Stax Lambda Pros are history. They cannot be plugged into digital players and used in the fashion that my kids listen.

          They are not foreground listeners and listen differently. That is a game changer. How did these kids get to be the listeners they are? Digital audio on smartphones...

          Ed
          Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof.
          https://www.edsstuff.org
          Analog: VPI Prime, HRX Pulley w/3 Belts, Dual Pivot, ADS, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Liberty B2B-1, Sky 30 Trans
          Amp: *Audible Illusions L1 + Schiit Loki + Parasound A21
          Speakers: Magnepan MMC2 + DW-M, REL T5/i
          Digital: TASCAM UH-7000, Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai, NAD 446
          Head: Stax Lambda Pro, HiFiMan HE-400S, Focal Clear, Schiit Lyr 2
          Wires: Kimber Hero w/WBT + 8TC, AQ Leopard + King Cobra

          *Modified/Customized Component

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          • #6
            The internet killed high end audio. First it was MP3 downloads. Then the B&M stores where you could hear/audition high end audio disappeared when people bought online.

            My 27 year old daughter has a big collection of CDs. She began downloading music in the mid-2000s. Now she owns a great pair of Audio Technica headphones for her streamed music - that's where the younger music lovers are headed.

            We loved our albums, the artwork and the warm, lifelike sound but convenience took over. Physical media is breathing its last gasps and the younger generation looks at LPs with nostalgia - as we do.
            Thiel 7.2s, Manley NeoClassic 250s, Wadia 850, MIT Oracle V3 speaker cables, MIT MI-350 Oracle interconnects, Black Diamond Racing Shelves and Cones in a dedicated room with ASC Tube Traps, Room Tunes and 3 X 20 amp dedicated circuits.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by EdAInWestOC View Post
              If the music industry would ante up and support new acts we would all benefit. The problem is that the finances of the industry changed with the lower album sales. There is a lot less to make on a single vs an entire album. Digital did more damage than many of us would believe. It wan't intentional and the music industry would change things if they could turn back the clock.
              I agree with digital and the damage done. The law of unintended consequences bit them in the ass. They didn't foresee losing control of their music catalog by people making perfect copies of their digital files. The digital genie is out of the bottle though and the music industry can't stuff it back in.

              Originally posted by EdAInWestOC View Post
              Yesterday I was reading about new digital technology that recreates listening spaces and speaker performance parameters. I spoke to a salesman I know and trust and this stuff is for real. I believe the name of the thing is the BACCH-SP Adio. I'll try and look up the other details but the benefit of this new technology is that the device can reproduce the sound of different speakers and rooms. You can make your system sound like Myles system and vice versa.
              I would be very skeptical about this. Digital modeling has made lots of promises it couldn't keep. Ever heard one of the SS guitar amps with modeling built in that will make it sound "exactly" like the expensive tube guitar amp of your choice and dreams? Any resemblance from a SS modeling amp to the sound of a real Marshall amp or Fender amp requires a very active imagination. I don't see this technology making a splash in high end audio. People want the real thing, not an approximation of an approximation.

              SP-10 MKII table with custom power supply designed and built by Peter Noerbaek with an SME 3012R with Dyna XV-1S cartridge, VPI Avenger table with rim drive and JMW -12-3D arrm with Lyra Etna SL cartridge, Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, NOLA KO speakers with a pair of Def Tech Ref subs, and a pair of JBL 4345 speakers.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mep View Post

                I agree with digital and the damage done. The law of unintended consequences bit them in the ass. They didn't foresee losing control of their music catalog by people making perfect copies of their digital files. The digital genie is out of the bottle though and the music industry can't stuff it back in.



                I would be very skeptical about this. Digital modeling has made lots of promises it couldn't keep. Ever heard one of the SS guitar amps with modeling built in that will make it sound "exactly" like the expensive tube guitar amp of your choice and dreams? Any resemblance from a SS modeling amp to the sound of a real Marshall amp or Fender amp requires a very active imagination. I don't see this technology making a splash in high end audio. People want the real thing, not an approximation of an approximation.
                Yeah I owned a Line 6 modeling amp and a separate modeling add on. None of those were very good but this new thing is supposed to be generations better and it is supposed to actually work. I was skeptical too until my salesman told me about it and assured me it wasn't the same old modeling technology.

                I guess they have learned a lot along the way. Theoretically it is possible but it requires a lot of processing power. Maybe we have reached that threshold. Harry Weisfeld, who was at the demo of this device, was so impressed he is supposedly buying one for his personal system.

                NOTE: I did some searching and this BACCH-SP thing has been in development for some time now. The technology has made some strides and they have overcome some of the earlier limitations. They have shown promising performance over the past couple of years but it seems to now be at a more acceptable performance level. I wouldn't drop the cash on a processing box but, who knows what the future holds?
                Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof.
                https://www.edsstuff.org
                Analog: VPI Prime, HRX Pulley w/3 Belts, Dual Pivot, ADS, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Liberty B2B-1, Sky 30 Trans
                Amp: *Audible Illusions L1 + Schiit Loki + Parasound A21
                Speakers: Magnepan MMC2 + DW-M, REL T5/i
                Digital: TASCAM UH-7000, Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai, NAD 446
                Head: Stax Lambda Pro, HiFiMan HE-400S, Focal Clear, Schiit Lyr 2
                Wires: Kimber Hero w/WBT + 8TC, AQ Leopard + King Cobra

                *Modified/Customized Component

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't think the CD (or the introduction of "digital audio" as such) did in the music business, but as mkullermep point out, the Internet, combined with lossy compression algorithms, readily available as executables on the Net for free, enabled the cheap, easy proliferation of music files "for free" and set an even lower bar for generally accepted sound quality; for most people, spending serious money on gear or the material to play on it doesn't make sense.

                  The industry continued to flourish with the introduction of the CD format, once production and manufacturing costs came down, there was greater profit for the record industry side for a while. I was there, even before the Internet hit the music business and MP.3 existed as a format, trying to put the genie back into the bottle. It couldn't be done; it was a game of "whack-a-mole" to keep the stuff off mainstream sites and major test cases against big players. The RIAA's attempt to go after end users wasn't exactly a PR success.

                  The industry was always hit driven, but as Napster and other illicit sources of music got introduced to mainstream audiences, the pressure was on the industry to respond: selling single tracks rather than whole albums was a huge issue and artists were perceived as these rich lunkheads who were profiting off the backs of youngsters who couldn't afford the price of a new record (though as the Apple revolution proved, they could afford the price of an expensive phone). The industry had a futuristic gun pointed at its head- release the stuff through some legitimate channel, cheaply, or suffer "piracy." They still suffer illegal downloading, but as most of us know, that's not even as big an issue any more, now that streaming is the medium du jour. Why bother buying anything other than a small handheld or your computer (on which you can watch widescreen movies, ugh). There was little stomach for DRM (remember the Sony 'rootkit' debacle?). Even DVD and Blu, which were encrypted, got hacked pretty quickly- the issue there was file size in transmitting over the Net but that got solved pretty quickly by some lossy free file compression algorithms that resulted in a "better than VCR quality" copy.

                  The cultural shift goes beyond the expectation that music should be "free." The millennials love their music, and none of them, if you asked them about impacting artists, would want to deprive them of "fair compensation" (whatever that is), but the expectations are pretty low for SQ and for what it should cost to get a music system playing. Yeah, cast off receivers, turntables that weren't very good when they were new in the '70s or '80s and those cheap starter tables with built in phono preamps are all ok.

                  Part of it is also the economics of life- the cost of living makes any better hi-fi gear a lower priority unless and until the young person starts earning-- in that respect, I don't think they are much different than our generation of geezers. How much money did you have at the age of 18 or 20 to throw at a killer stereo system, even if you were manic about gear? Probably not a lot. (I had pretty good gear when I was in my late teens, partly b/c I was working in stores, trading up and didn't have much else to spend it on).

                  The industry has crashed before. It will come back in a different form, probably run by big data companies streaming content. Those hip to hard media and more traditional playback methods will have those devices and the material to play on them as well. Both cheap stuff and good stuff (and maybe some cheap good stuff).

                  If they stopped making records tomorrow, we'd still have the rest of our lives listening to music we haven't heard just culling from what has already been released.

                  If the CD hadn't been introduced, somebody would have digitized an analog source and uploaded it. Once the key elements were readily available-- compression alogorithms and bandwidth, something colleges and universities had long before high speed internet was available in most homes, the death knell sounded for the traditional business model.
                  I am no longer a digiphobe. I'm not ready to scrap my record collection or my vinyl playback equipment but AAA is no longer a deciding factor in whether I'll buy a piece of music.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EdAInWestOC View Post

                    Yeah I owned a Line 6 modeling amp and a separate modeling add on. None of those were very good but this new thing is supposed to be generations better and it is supposed to actually work. I was skeptical too until my salesman told me about it and assured me it wasn't the same old modeling technology.

                    I guess they have learned a lot along the way. Theoretically it is possible but it requires a lot of processing power. Maybe we have reached that threshold. Harry Weisfeld, who was at the demo of this device, was so impressed he is supposedly buying one for his personal system.

                    NOTE: I did some searching and this BACCH-SP thing has been in development for some time now. The technology has made some strides and they have overcome some of the earlier limitations. They have shown promising performance over the past couple of years but it seems to now be at a more acceptable performance level. I wouldn't drop the cash on a processing box but, who knows what the future holds?
                    I had an opportunity to listen to the BACCH-SP today. On some recordings it definitely brought the vocals into focus and created a much clearer sound field. On a dozen recordings we listening with and without the processing. Some of the time I found the soundstage to narrow a bit but for the most part I think I preferred the digital recordings with the processing as opposed to without. I would have to listen to it in my system to really see if I like it or not.
                    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio V3 Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS; Durand Telos and SME 3012R Tonearms, Lyra Etna SL, Ortofon Anna, Benz Micro LPS; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Studer A810; Tascam BR-20; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC> Lampizator Big 7 DAC

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                    • #11
                      My kids including my youngest who's 11 listen to music via Spotify A LOT. I'm always surprised how they know the lyrics to almost anything played on the radio when we are in the car together. I think there is a similarity with cell phones vs land lines. We get a better connection with the latter but because the CP is in hand we don't even bother to reach across the desk to use the land line. We'd probably need to still get the cell anyway because we no longer have all the important numbers memorized LOL

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                      • #12
                        I see it as a cultural thing. When I was young TV was not that exciting. Small B&W screen. No cell phones, no computers. There was so much less material in the world to draw your attention. I also noticed something the other day. Humans seem to seek the easiest route to satisfaction. I noticed a kid at a clients house watching TV. It was beautiful outside. He was inside watching the tube. Zoning out. It was easy. Didn't have the think. With all the distractions my brothers kids are content to sit at home with a video game and instant chat with friend. They don't need to be with each other. Too much work to ride a bike some amount of miles to a different house. I think the reduced face to face socialization results in less positive interactions where music is involved. You need those parties where The Police or David Bowie is cranking. Maybe someone pulls out a guitar and riffs along. Friends with bands and everyone gathers to hear them jam. That builds a base foundation of music as a cultural phenomenon. Without that, the "music" means nothing. If the music means nothing, the equipment is even less important.
                        PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI preamp,
                        Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
                        Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

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                        • #13
                          I grilled my neighbors kid on this last night. They do not have many parties any more. If they do, the music is crap rap. The only time he listens to music is in the car. When they hang out, they play Xbox or some other and those systems do not play music during games. (Possible business venture here via licensing - Bill???). Maybe one kid has a band in his high school. He's not popular and no one hangs out and listens to them. They never hang out and play music. No one at home has a stereo besides some blue tooth junk. This could also be a symptom of very busy parents with little discretionary money doing nothing to introduce their kids to music. From what I see of helicopter parents, there only though is to get them to some soccer game or other activity that never has anything to do with music.
                          PAP Trio 10/Voxativ & PAP Trio 15 Horn speakers, Ampsandsound Casablanca monoblocks, First Sound Audio Mark 3SI preamp,
                          Mojo Audio Deja Vu server, Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC, The Linear Solution Ethernet Switch, Blue Jeans Ethernet cablling,
                          Akiko Corelli, Custom power strip direct wired to panel with OFC copper wire. Inakustik Ref Air 2404 Speaker cable. Genesis and Inakustik NF2404 Air Interconnects.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kingrex View Post
                            I grilled my neighbors kid on this last night. They do not have many parties any more. If they do, the music is crap rap. The only time he listens to music is in the car. When they hang out, they play Xbox or some other and those systems do not play music during games. (Possible business venture here via licensing - Bill???). Maybe one kid has a band in his high school. He's not popular and no one hangs out and listens to them. They never hang out and play music. No one at home has a stereo besides some blue tooth junk. This could also be a symptom of very busy parents with little discretionary money doing nothing to introduce their kids to music. From what I see of helicopter parents, there only though is to get them to some soccer game or other activity that never has anything to do with music.

                            Or or maybe these kids would rather play soccer or another activity with others than set alone listening to music.
                            Chris
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------
                            Kef 201/2, Pass xa30.5, W4S STP-SE, Manley Chinook, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV20x2L, ExaSound e32, Acoustic Zen cables. (Office): Vincent SP331 Mkll, Quicksilver Pre, Lumin D1, (Ken Lau Signiture Edition PSU), Bryston BCD-1, Vapor Audio Breeze, WooAudio W6se, HD800, HD600, Mr Speaker Ether C Flow,

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                            • #15
                              Instead of explaining why kids aren't interested in high end audio, how about asking them instead? Even of my son's friends who don't own any music, but listen only over Spotify, once they hear his system they start asking about it. I've got five or six 20 somethings waiting to save up money to have me help them put a system together.

                              I still maintain the biggest reason is the industry and participants insist on telling them they shouldn't be interested.
                              Last edited by Steve Lefkowicz; 07-15-2018, 12:15 PM.
                              Steve Lefkowicz
                              Senior Associate Editor at Positive Feedback
                              --------------------------------------------------------
                              http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...ounding-system

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