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  • #16
    Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post
    You also don't often see VPI arms on other brands of table. Surprising seeing their seemingly high performance/price ratio.
    Let's look at some of the popular table/arm combos:

    Air Force + Graham
    Spiral Groove + Spiral Groove
    Basis + Basis
    Kronos + Black Beauty though there will be an armboard to accomodate Grahams
    Linn + Linn
    Clearaudio + Clearaudio
    AMG + AMG
    Kuzma + Kuzma
    SME + SME
    Transrotor + SME/Graham
    Scheu + Scheu
    Continuum + Continuum
    Feickert + Kuzma (?)
    Oracle + SME
    Rega + Rega
    Dobbin/Dohmann/OMA + Schroeder
    NVS + Durand
    Galabrier + Durand/Triplanar
    Redpoint + Helius (?)
    Acoustic Signature + ? (know they have their own arm)

    Exception off the top of my head:

    Merrill table + Ortofon arm

    And some outliers:

    Triplanar (though listed for Galabrier)
    SAT



    Lower priced arm alternative for many tables = Jelco variations

    So it seem the "package" deal is the way companies are going. And business wise, some companies have hooked up with other companies. Don't forget some of the special armboards can be pricey too. Not to mention, they probably these combos as you mentioned give the best price/performance ratio.
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
    -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
    -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

    Comment


    • tom_hankins
      tom_hankins commented
      Editing a comment
      Avid seems to "prefer" SME with it's tables

    • MylesBAstor
      MylesBAstor commented
      Editing a comment
      True. I wonder how much of it comes down to the weight of the arm and the Avid being a sprung suspension? Or just two UK companies working together.

      Another thing to consider is that turntable manufacturers want to go with an arm manufacturer who can readily supply tonearms. No table manufacturer wants to lose a sale because the arm the customer has ordered is back ordered for months. And keep on calling and keeps on finding out the manufacturer has no idea when an arm (s) will be available.

      We know audiophiles aren't patient and even less patient when it comes to the arrival of equipment they've ordered! It better be there yesterday. And some of that is brought on by changes in business models eg. stores rarely have items in stock any more.

    • JackD201
      JackD201 commented
      Editing a comment
      I remember being told that AVID does not recommend unipivots for their tables, yes, because they are sprung. That SME is a fellow UK company probably follows after that.

  • #17
    But what if you already own a nice turntable and arm and just want to upgrade one or the other?
    Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

    Comment


    • #18
      Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post
      But what if you already own a nice turntable and arm and just want to upgrade one or the other?
      Good question. That would probably make for a good separate thread.
      Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
      Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
      ________________________________________

      -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
      -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
      -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
      -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
      -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
      -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
      -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
      -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
      -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
      -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

      Comment


      • #19
        I haven't heard the latest crop, but there always seemed to be a significant difference between a relatively inexpensive audiophile table and a big league one. I'm not going "full Ivor" on you, but what about a VPI Prime and one of those Lyras that are a relative bargain re sonics? Delos?
        It's like the joke about the poor guy who sees a rich man eating a specific dish, and says to his wife, "I'd really like to eat that before I die." She manages to substitute ingredients, and take a few short cuts, prepares it for him and he sits down to dive in with gusto. After a few chews he says, "For the life of me, I don't know what they see in this."
        People (who aren't into hi-fi) seem to believe that "vinyl sounds better" and that you buy an entry level table and you get magic. I don't know- I lived with the Well-Tempered back in the '80s- when there was only one model, tweaked the hell out of it- and it gave me good performance--it was one of those beer budget tables that eventually wound up costing too much at retail, at least with the bells and whistles, to qualify as entry. But, even fully tweaked, when I switched to a more modern, bigger league table, the difference was vast. I'm not one for proclaiming "it destroys the X" or "it's like a Volkswagen v a Ferrari (PS the Volkswagen, in the form of a so-called Bugatti, has a higher top speed anyway), but the differences weren't subtle. And so, I guess unless someone tells me there's been a sonic breakthrough on entry level tables, I'd say, save your money, buy into a better table arm to start with, and you'll understand why some people didn't just discover vinyl five years ago. Hope that doesn't sound pissy, b/c it's not my style....

        Comment


        • Kingrex
          Kingrex commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree Bill, but I have 3 friends with stereo and all told about $500 in parts for the receiver and speakers. Like the more invested vinyl lover, they too like touching the medium. They really have no idea what their stereo really sound like. They just want a record player. They don't even get the concept of cleaning a record. Dry brush only.

      • #20
        Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
        I haven't heard the latest crop, but there always seemed to be a significant difference between a relatively inexpensive audiophile table and a big league one. I'm not going "full Ivor" on you, but what about a VPI Prime and one of those Lyras that are a relative bargain re sonics? Delos?
        It's like the joke about the poor guy who sees a rich man eating a specific dish, and says to his wife, "I'd really like to eat that before I die." She manages to substitute ingredients, and take a few short cuts, prepares it for him and he sits down to dive in with gusto. After a few chews he says, "For the life of me, I don't know what they see in this."
        People (who aren't into hi-fi) seem to believe that "vinyl sounds better" and that you buy an entry level table and you get magic. I don't know- I lived with the Well-Tempered back in the '80s- when there was only one model, tweaked the hell out of it- and it gave me good performance--it was one of those beer budget tables that eventually wound up costing too much at retail, at least with the bells and whistles, to qualify as entry. But, even fully tweaked, when I switched to a more modern, bigger league table, the difference was vast. I'm not one for proclaiming "it destroys the X" or "it's like a Volkswagen v a Ferrari (PS the Volkswagen, in the form of a so-called Bugatti, has a higher top speed anyway), but the differences weren't subtle. And so, I guess unless someone tells me there's been a sonic breakthrough on entry level tables, I'd say, save your money, buy into a better table arm to start with, and you'll understand why some people didn't just discover vinyl five years ago. Hope that doesn't sound pissy, b/c it's not my style....
        What I like--and I'm sure VPI did this because are asked this question 50X a day--is a listing of recommended cartridges for each model of table.

        http://vpiindustries.com/cartridge.html
        Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
        Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
        ________________________________________

        -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
        -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
        -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
        -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
        -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
        -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
        -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
        -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
        -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
        -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

        Comment


        • #21
          Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post
          I haven't heard the latest crop, but there always seemed to be a significant difference between a relatively inexpensive audiophile table and a big league one. I'm not going "full Ivor" on you, but what about a VPI Prime and one of those Lyras that are a relative bargain re sonics? Delos?
          It's like the joke about the poor guy who sees a rich man eating a specific dish, and says to his wife, "I'd really like to eat that before I die." She manages to substitute ingredients, and take a few short cuts, prepares it for him and he sits down to dive in with gusto. After a few chews he says, "For the life of me, I don't know what they see in this."
          People (who aren't into hi-fi) seem to believe that "vinyl sounds better" and that you buy an entry level table and you get magic. I don't know- I lived with the Well-Tempered back in the '80s- when there was only one model, tweaked the hell out of it- and it gave me good performance--it was one of those beer budget tables that eventually wound up costing too much at retail, at least with the bells and whistles, to qualify as entry. But, even fully tweaked, when I switched to a more modern, bigger league table, the difference was vast. I'm not one for proclaiming "it destroys the X" or "it's like a Volkswagen v a Ferrari (PS the Volkswagen, in the form of a so-called Bugatti, has a higher top speed anyway), but the differences weren't subtle. And so, I guess unless someone tells me there's been a sonic breakthrough on entry level tables, I'd say, save your money, buy into a better table arm to start with, and you'll understand why some people didn't just discover vinyl five years ago. Hope that doesn't sound pissy, b/c it's not my style....
          What youre saying is true but even a budget audiophile TT with good LPs easily beats a typical CD player with great CDs and that's what getting into vinyl is all about.
          Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

          Comment


          • #22
            Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

            What youre saying is true but even a budget audiophile TT with good LPs easily beats a typical CD player with great CDs and that's what getting into vinyl is all about.
            Fair enough. I don't really have a handle on current mainstream digital products.

            Comment


            • #23
              Originally posted by Bill Hart View Post

              Fair enough. I don't really have a handle on current mainstream digital products.
              mainstream digital today is streaming or file mp3s for the most part. ouch, its not even CDs and CD players.
              Magnepan 1.6 QR Loudspeakers, Amherst A-2000 MOSFET 150 WPC Amp, Conrad Johnson PV-10A Modded Tube Line & Phono Stage, Electrocompaniet MC II Class A Head Amp, Audio Technica AT-OC9XML Cart (Stereo) , Graham Engineering 2.2 Tonearm (Stereo) , VPI Aries-1 Turntable (Stereo) , VPI Clamp, Denon DL-102 Cart, (Mono) , Luxman Tonearm (Mono) , Kenwood KD-500 Turntable (Mpmp) , Michell Clamp, Marantz 20B Analog FM Tuner, Pioneer SACD, Onkyo DX-6800 CD Transport, DIY 24B/192K DAC, Sennheiser HD-650 Headphones, Headroom Max Balanced Headphone Amp, DIY Silver Interconnects

              Comment


              • #24
                Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

                What youre saying is true but even a budget audiophile TT with good LPs easily beats a typical CD player with great CDs and that's what getting into vinyl is all about.
                But and it's a very big BUT (!), you have to be really careful about these comparison. Quite often I've found very different mixes used for the LP and CD release, respectively. Daft Punk's Random Acess Memories is one album that jumps out at me. The LP is really inferior to the CD. IIRC, they eviscerated the low end on the LP.
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
                -Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

                Comment


                • #25
                  I think I also go to one of the Regas for a first table. My own first real audiophile quality turntable was a Rega Planar 2 that I used with a Rega arm and a Linn K9 cartridge, but along the way I have also had the P3-24 with the TT-PSU and an Audio Note IQ3 MM cartridge, a P25 with the matching arm and, yes, a Lyra Parnassus dCT, and one of my favorite all time combinations, which I think is a little more than $1500, the RP6 with the matching arm and Dynavector 2x24-L cartridge. That turntable made me want to listen records in a way that many fancier and more expensive tables just didn't.
                  Transrotor Rossini Turntable w/Jelco SA-750DB
                  Audio Note Io Gold Cart. w/AN-S9 SUT
                  Audio Note CDT-Four Transport/Woo WDS-1 DAC
                  Ayre QX-5 Twenty Dig. Hub & 13” MacBook Pro w/Roon w/Melco N1A NAS
                  AN OTO Phono SE Signature Int. Amp w/AN-E SEC Silver Speakers w/Murata Super Tweeters
                  Purple J-Corder 1520 R2R and Nakamichi Dragon Cassette Deck
                  PSAudio P10 AC Regen./Equi=Tech Bal. Transformer
                  Harmonic Technology, Audio Note, Kondo Sound Labs, Stealth, AQ Cables
                  Woo GES w/Sfax SR-507 Headphones

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    Originally posted by JCOConnell View Post

                    mainstream digital today is streaming or file mp3s for the most part. ouch, its not even CDs and CD players.
                    Sad but true. I do enjoy TIDAL HiFi, which is full CD resolution streaming, but I think that's a niche market. Too many people have never heard anything but MP3s or AACs listening through free earbuds that come with smartphones or Beats headphones, which are all bass. :-(
                    Transrotor Rossini Turntable w/Jelco SA-750DB
                    Audio Note Io Gold Cart. w/AN-S9 SUT
                    Audio Note CDT-Four Transport/Woo WDS-1 DAC
                    Ayre QX-5 Twenty Dig. Hub & 13” MacBook Pro w/Roon w/Melco N1A NAS
                    AN OTO Phono SE Signature Int. Amp w/AN-E SEC Silver Speakers w/Murata Super Tweeters
                    Purple J-Corder 1520 R2R and Nakamichi Dragon Cassette Deck
                    PSAudio P10 AC Regen./Equi=Tech Bal. Transformer
                    Harmonic Technology, Audio Note, Kondo Sound Labs, Stealth, AQ Cables
                    Woo GES w/Sfax SR-507 Headphones

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      Originally posted by Galileo View Post
                      I think I also go to one of the Regas for a first table. My own first real audiophile quality turntable was a Rega Planar 2 that I used with a Rega arm and a Linn K9 cartridge, but along the way I have also had the P3-24 with the TT-PSU and an Audio Note IQ3 MM cartridge, a P25 with the matching arm and, yes, a Lyra Parnassus dCT, and one of my favorite all time combinations, which I think is a little more than $1500, the RP6 with the matching arm and Dynavector 2x24-L cartridge. That turntable made me want to listen records in a way that many fancier and more expensive tables just didn't.
                      The RP6 is my entry point. It makes my music very enjoyable. With it's external power supply and ability to play 45's with ease makes it very versatile. Overtime I have the RB303 and Exact cartridge to have very good synergy. I matched it with the Linn LINN UPHORIK phono stage and it holds it's own.

                      Comment


                      • #28
                        Two that I've had here in that price range, that impressed were the VPI Scout Jr. and Rega RP6. Both had Ortofon Red cartridges on them. Add the XLR junction box on the VPI and (for me) it moves slightly ahead of the Rega.
                        SOURCE: VINYL - EAT C-Sharp with, EAT LPS power supply, My Sonic Lab Signature Gold
                        DIGITAL - Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. Roon Nucleus w/EAT Lps power supply. Auralic Aires G1
                        PHONOSTAGE: AudioNet PAM G2 with AudioNet EPX power supply.
                        PREAMP: Audionet PRE G2.
                        AMPLIFIER: Audionet MAX monoblocks.
                        SPEAKERS: YG Acoustics Anat III Signatures (upgraded to Sonja 1.2) JL Audio F112 V2 (x2)
                        CABLES: Kubala-Sosna, Kubala Sosna Xpander.....Audio Desk Systeme RCM, Adona Rack, GIK & Acoustimac room treatment, Isoacoustics

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          I doubt 99% of people would consider $1500 - $2000 "entry level" for a turntable. Even the $750 or so for the Music Hall 2.3 SE I have in right now is more than most people who aren't already audiophiles (or part of the financial 1%) would consider as entry level. It's like saying an "entry level sports car" is a Cayman GTS or a Z06.
                          Steve Lefkowicz
                          Senior Associate Editor at Positive Feedback
                          -
                          Analog 1: Linn LP12 (MOSE/Hercules II), Ittok, Dynavector 10X5 MK.II Low Output, iPhono2/iPowerX; Analog 2: Pro-Ject RPM-1 Carbon, Talisman S, iFi iPhono.
                          Digital: Samsung 300E5C notebook, JRiver Media Center 26, Tidal HiFi and Qobuz Studio), iFi NEO iDSD, iFi iUSB3, iPurifier2, Audioquest Jitterbug.
                          Electronics: DIY passive line-stage with TKD 10K pot, Antique Sound Labs MG-SI15DT-S, Burson Timekeeper Virtuoso
                          Speakers: Tekton Lore, Magneplaner .7
                          Interconnects: Morrow Audio MA1, Vermouth Audio Black Pearl, Audioquest Evergreen
                          Speaker cables: Morrow Audio SP4, Vermouth Audio Red Velvet
                          Digital cables: Aural Symphonics Digital Standard xxv USB, Belkin PureAV.
                          Accessories: Sound Organization turntable shelf, Mondo racks, Pangea Audio Vulcan rack, Pi Audio Group Über BUSS, Monster HTS2000 power conditioner, Kinetronics anti-static brush, Pro-Ject VC-S record cleaner, Spin Clean record cleaner.
                          Headphones: Schiit Valhalla amp, Burson Conductor Virtuoso Amp, Meze Audio 99 Classic and 99 Neo, Beyerdynamic DT770Pro 600 ohm, DT770 Studio 80 ohm, 1More Triple Driver Over Ear, 1More Triple Driver IEM

                          http://www.audionirvana.org/forum/ti...ounding-system

                          Comment


                          • Gusf
                            Gusf commented
                            Editing a comment
                            My entire family will agree with you.

                        • #30
                          Originally posted by Steve Lefkowicz View Post
                          I doubt 99% of people would consider $1500 - $2000 "entry level" for a turntable. Even the $750 or so for the Music Hall 2.3 SE I have in right now is more than most people who aren't already audiophiles (or part of the financial 1%) would consider as entry level. It's like saying an "entry level sports car" is a Cayman GTS or a Z06.
                          Before everyone discovered them you could buy a nice Lenco off Ebay for as little as $35.00. Of course that was over 10 years ago. Also found a new in box Decca tonearm for $105.00. I had a local cabinet shop build a plywood plinth on the cheap for the Lenco, choose the Shure V15Vxmr for the Decca.

                          I had this on a shelf with Walker Black Diamond Proscenium on my dedicated stand. It was fun having ultra cheap and ultra expensive side by side.

                          Comment

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