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**bonzo75** · 08-03-2016, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Bill Hart

Knowing you like horns, Bonzo, did you visit OMA?

Hi no, did not get the time. I closed my decision on restored Apogees though. Won't buy for a while, but now my trips will be more to investigate analog, and occasionally to compare SS or powerful valve amps. If I had any sense I would just get Myles' tape deck, though.

**Rob** · 08-03-2016, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by bonzo75

Hi no, did not get the time. I closed my decision on restored Apogees though. Won't buy for a while, but now my trips will be more to investigate analog, and occasionally to compare SS or powerful valve amps. If I had any sense I would just get Myles' tape deck, though.

Which Apogees? I owned Duetta Sigs back in the day powered by Krells and Rowlands and have a lot of 'seat time' with Divas. I think the Analysis Audio's I heard on two different occasions were in the same league, sonically.

**bonzo75** · 08-03-2016, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Rob

Which Apogees? I owned Duetta Sigs back in the day powered by Krells and Rowlands and have a lot of 'seat time' with Divas. I think the Analysis Audio's I heard on two different occasions were in the same league, sonically.

I will start with restored Duettas and then upgrade to FR when I buy a bigger flat in a few years. I have spent a lot of time listening to different Analysis, also Omegas and Amphitryon. The US distro mods his and those are really good - my choice would be restored Apogees, some horns, or modded Analysis. The midrange, vocals, strings, and piano on it are glorious - where it lacks apogees is the bass, slam, and excitement. On Analysis I see myself as laid back in a chair enjoying peace. With Apogees I see myself standing up vigorously conducting an orchestra. Also if anyone were into rock and electronic, Analysis is a no-go. I am purely classical, so they work for me, but Apogees are great at everything.

Modded Analysis are more consistent, while I have heard a lot of Apogees that I found boring. The ones to go for are those restored by Rich Murry (True Sound Works) in the US or Henk in Netherlands. They build the frames, change crossovers, and like all restorers put in Graz's ribbons. Graz from Australia now owns the Apogee brand and his bass ribbons are known to be much better than the originals. Duetta and Diva are now a flat 4ohm impedance, FRs (Full Ranges) 2ohms. The FRs and Henk's Grands are game over. Nothing at Munich can come close to them. But you need 100k for the Grands, and only 20k for the FRs.

Some in the US are now driving the Apogees with powerful tubes - Tube research Labs, AR, NAT...Myles' CJs will drive them beautifully. That said Analysis is easier to drive.

Also, to do Analysis you need minimum Omega, and then Amphitryon. If one has the room for an Amphi, one has the room for a FR. Otherwise Duettas work extremely well. With an Analysis you might miss the bass and dynamics of a cone or of a Trio with bass horns. With Apogees you will get the best bass and slam I have heard. The FR ribbon is even creamier than that of the Analysis.

Btw I switched from liking Analysis over Apogees to preferring Apogees to everything.

**lasercd** · 08-03-2016, 11:13 PM

I was one of those yuppies that bought a pair of Calipers from Audio Breakthoughs. I never really had the right size room for them but I loved them anyway.

**MylesBAstor** · 08-03-2016, 11:15 PM

My neighbor downstairs had a pair of Calipers. They had a nice dent from when his son punched out the midrange panel.

**Rhapsody** · 08-04-2016, 08:00 AM

In the 80's/90's I owned Duetta Signatures, Slant 6's, Stages, and Divas/Dax (driven by 4 VTL 300 mono amps). I was an Apogee diehard. The sound was incredible on the Diva's although for me personally, just like several Magnepans (and Soundlabs) that I owned, I got tired of having the two large panels blocking my "holographic view" of the layering of instruments on the soundstage which were placed in the rears to the left and right of center.

With speakers that I can see over (behind them) I enjoy the presentation of the "soundstage view" more than with large panels that make me feel that I am looking into a tunnel between the two panels.....just a personal preference.

**Bill Hart** · 08-04-2016, 09:02 AM

When we bought a loft/brownstone in Brooklyn Heights years ago, the top floor was cut away to look down into the floor below and it had an old style painter's studio style glass ceiling on the front end of the room facing the street. It was a very cool space. The owner had Apogees set up, along with a wall mounted platform for his turntable. I never heard his system -by the time we bought the place, it was empty. I wound up using a different space in the building for a dedicated listening room. It was one of the best rooms I ever had- high ceilings, heavy plaster/lathe/horsehair walls, wide, old plank flooring. That room was sympathetically restored, rather than being modernized, like the rest of the our floors.
I remember the Apogees well. Never owned them, though I had my experiences with ribbon tweeters back in the day, including Deccas (which I still have- they are bookends now) and Sequerras, which I eventually sold.
Weren't they a "tough" load on transistor amps of the day? They were often used with Krells, but Krell was currency of the realm back then.

**RonR** · 08-04-2016, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Rhapsody

In the 80's/90's I owned . . . Divas/Dax (driven by 4 VTL 300 mono amps). . .

Bob, I would be grateful if you could comment on the Divas driven by four VTL 300s.

At what SPL would typically listen?

How big was your room?

Did you hear any dynamic constriction or distortion at higher volumes?

Did you have the sense that even more power into the Divas would have been desirable?

Thank you.

Ron

**bonzo75** · 08-04-2016, 06:04 PM

Hi thanks for starting the thread Myles. W.r.t the first post, the Krell/Electrocompaniet etc were for the Scintilla, which goes down to 1 ohm and has a diffferent house sound.

The Duettas and Divas now go down to 4ohm, the Full range to 2ohms. The Grand is the easiest to drive because the woofer (below 40Hz) and tweeter have massive inbuilt Krell, so it is the mids and bass panel only that requires driving.

The favorite amps among the US restores seem to the be the Tube Research Labs. Myles' CJs are more powerful. There are people driving the FR and Grands with NAT amps, which are SETs of 120w from Serbia (they were ranked 1 in a German magazine, ahead of the twice priced Dagostino).

My shortlist is to try 2 powerful class A amps - Symphonic Line Kraft and Bridged Luxman M800 (which have a similar class A flowing liquid sound to Bob's Vitus, with more power in bridged mode), possibly MSB 203, and to compare it to the Ayon Orthos which runs 300w in triode and 400 in pentode.

Apogees are different from Maggies and Analysis due to their bass panel. I cannot get bass like this from a cone, because their entire giant trapezoid moves so fast and sends bass waves down with superb integration and decay - no more of bass coming from an isolated woofer in the lower section of a cabinet.

Ron heard the Genesis Drum Duet on the Grands and then bought the CD and went over to listen to it in Steve's Alexandria's - no contest. The thing is that you don't need the 100k Grand to do that, the Duetta is sufficient. You have drums pounding away at you, all across the vertical rectangle of the plane of the speakers facing you.

I actually find the layering on this perfect for orchestral - sound comes out as one, from a concert stage, yet separated. Yes, visually you might have a panel in between, but sonically that panel disappears beautifully. It's the prefect rectangular stage, with the orchestra in 3d behind, and sound coming out in front. With the fastest bass and slam dynamics. More dynamics than the bass horns from trios. The restored bass panels are much better than the originals, and the mids are more involving. The ribbon tone is of course beautiful, like with the analysis, and denser than stats, so more real.

I am now dedicating myself to the Apogee project. When I move, it will be with the Duetta Sigs, do a merry go round of amps, by then if I have sufficient money to buy an 8m long lounge in Central London, I will upgrade to Full ranges which need biamping. Once you hear Mahler 2 on a FR, tough to go back to anything else. The bass waves just come at you, and decay beautifully.

Personally I think Bob's room was small for Divas and would have done Duettas beautifully. For those interested you can listen to a nice restore in a 18 * 13 room in Long Island. Lampi, TRL, Duetta.

**MylesBAstor** · 08-04-2016, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Bill Hart

When we bought a loft/brownstone in Brooklyn Heights years ago, the top floor was cut away to look down into the floor below and it had an old style painter's studio style glass ceiling on the front end of the room facing the street. It was a very cool space. The owner had Apogees set up, along with a wall mounted platform for his turntable. I never heard his system -by the time we bought the place, it was empty. I wound up using a different space in the building for a dedicated listening room. It was one of the best rooms I ever had- high ceilings, heavy plaster/lathe/horsehair walls, wide, old plank flooring. That room was sympathetically restored, rather than being modernized, like the rest of the our floors.
I remember the Apogees well. Never owned them, though I had my experiences with ribbon tweeters back in the day, including Deccas (which I still have- they are bookends now) and Sequerras, which I eventually sold.
Weren't they a "tough" load on transistor amps of the day? They were often used with Krells, but Krell was currency of the realm back then.

Well you heard them once a month at least back in those days.

Krell and those who couldn't afford Krell slummed with the Classe DR2 or 3 VHC amplifier designed by Dave Reich. 45 wpc Class A.

**lasercd** · 08-04-2016, 11:21 PM

My Apogee story...

Like Myles I used to frequent Audio Breakthroughs in Manahttan. I had a relationship with that store dating back to 1977. They were the NYC dealer for Apogee. I was in love with those speakers. To me the Apogees were the alpha and the omega but I couldn't really afford them and I didn't have the room. They really needed space and more juice than I had.

In 1987 I was married and living in an apartment in Hoboken. My living room was 13x13. Awful. I was driving a pair of Theil 1.5 with a Counterpoint SA-12 amp (Audible Illusions pre and Ariston RD11-s table). One day Jeff Mantell called me (he ran Breakthrough's Manhattan store). The store Caliper demos were for sale. I think the Signatures were coming out. Jeff gave me a deal I couldn't refuse.

Lust won out over reason. I set them up in my living room, with a 27 inch tv in between. My wife hated them immediately. They were so big they acted like room dividers. The magnets in the ribbons used to distort the tv picture.

Still I was in love. I knew the Counterpoint was no match for that speaker. Being stupid instead of ditching the amp for a Classe (I couldn't afford Krell - that came later) I bought a second SA-12. Big mistake.

Everything was fine except that one fateful day when I put that Pat Matheny album on. An arc of blue flame shot out of the right Caliper and it went silent. Scared the living shit out of me.

The speaker was repaired and I couldn't tempt fate any further. I said a sad farewell and moved on to a more conventional speaker, the Unity Audio Fountainhead Signature and a full blown Krell set up.

After that I had to live vicariously through my friend in Florida who had a pair of Divas in a huge room. That's another story...

There really is something magical about a well set up Apogee.

**Rob** · 08-04-2016, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by MylesBAstor

Well you heard them once a month at least back in those days.

Krell and those who couldn't afford Krell slummed with the Classe DR2 or 3 VHC amplifier designed by Dave Reich. 45 wpc Class A.

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NOW we're talking! Thats a cool note by David R. The first time i heard Apogees in the mid-80s was at Stereo Design (they sadly closed their doors last month after 30+ years

) They had Scintillas powered by bridged DR3-VHC amps, this was the best I ever heard the Scintilla but they weren't my favorite Apogees, not by far.

They were bass heavy and difficult to place in a room for an even response. in fact all Apogees are somewhat underdamped to raise the Q for a stronger bass response. The result was at certain low frequencies played back at med to high levels, the bass panel would 'slap' and distort - almost all apogees did this.

**MylesBAstor** · 08-04-2016, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by lasercd

My Apogee story...

Like Myles I used to frequent Audio Breakthroughs in Manahttan. I had a relationship with that store dating back to 1977. They were the NYC dealer for Apogee. I was in love with those speakers. To me the Apogees were the alpha and the omega but I couldn't really afford them and I didn't have the room. They really needed space and more juice than I had.

In 1987 I was married and living in an apartment in Hoboken. My living room was 13x13. Awful. I was driving a pair of Theil 1.5 with a Counterpoint SA-12 amp (Audible Illusions pre and Ariston RD11-s table). One day Jeff Mantell called me (he ran Breakthrough's Manhattan store). The store Caliper demos were for sale. I think the Signatures were coming out. Jeff gave me a deal I couldn't refuse.

Lust won out over reason. I set them up in my living room, with a 27 inch tv in between. My wife hated them immediately. They were so big they acted like room dividers. The magnets in the ribbons used to distort the tv picture.

Still I was in love. I knew the Counterpoint was no match for that speaker. Being stupid instead of ditching the amp for a Classe (I couldn't afford Krell - that came later) I bought a second SA-12. Big mistake.

Everything was fine except that one fateful day when I put that Pat Matheny album on. An arc of blue flame shot out of the right Caliper and it went silent. Scared the living shit out of me.

The speaker was repaired and I couldn't tempt fate any further. I said a sad farewell and moved on to a more conventional speaker, the Unity Audio Fountainhead Signature and a full blown Krell set up.

After that I had to live vicariously through my friend in Florida who had a pair of Divas in a huge room. That's another story...

There really is something magical about a well set up Apogee.

Do you remember a salesman named Bobby Cutillo at AB? Nicest man in the world. Sadly, Bobby was one of the early members of the gay community to die of AIDS back in '85. I was in grad school back then and we just had a researcher from Mt. Sinai give a presentation on a new disease that had only until then affected men of Mediterranean descent. Back in '82, AIDS was a curiosity and no one knew or appreciated the enormity of effect this disease would have. Such as wiping out a whole generation in Africa. Killing countless number of hemophiliacs. (actually wiping out hemophiliacs at that time before blood was checked.) Then I heard Bobby had come down with shingles and knowing what I did about opportunistic infections and that Bobby was gay, was hoping that he didn't have AIDS. Well as it turned out, he was diagnosed with AIDS shortly after. And AIDS was a horrible disease back then and will never forget visiting him at Cabrini Hospital. So depressing. And in fact, high-end audio lost quite a few people to AIDS back then such as Dean Roumanis who worked for Levinson and Krell.

Oh yes, and I think last I heard Jeff was working as writer in Hollywood?

**bonzo75** · 08-05-2016, 03:00 AM

HI, there are some posts on WBF by a guy named Thekong from Hong Kong

"My Duetta was restored by Graz nearly 10 years ago, and that was the first pair fitted with the foil only ribbon. According to Graz, the ribbon (together with the transformer) has an impedance of around 2.3ohm. The transformer was a custom design by Graz, similar to the ones used in his Definitive.

With the foil only ribbon, the original passive Xover could not be used, so the speaker was active bi-amp with a pair of Sonic Frontiers Power 3 (220W, 8 ohm) for the bass, and a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 (110W, 8 ohm) for the mid/treble ribbon.

My Fullrange was restored by Rich in the US. It is being active bi-amp driven with the above Sonic Frontiers combo, or 2 pairs of CJ Premier 8.

However, I am in the process of moving to a larger place, with an audio room of around 17’W, 28’L, 12.5’H, and I plan to active tri-amp the Fullrange with a pair of Pass X600.5 and 2 Pass X350.5. The foil only midrange ribbon, with 0.25ohm, would need a transformer to raise the impedance."

Here is a pic http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...l=1#post406264

So what he has done is actually replaced the standard Kapton back ribbon for the Duetta with a pure foil ribbon that has a lower impedance. This is rare. Normally pure foil exists only in the FR, and the Duetta and Diva are Kapton backed.

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